A criticism of the Rengar Rework, his interactions, and design. FAO Riot Repertoir.

Some thoughts from Rengar tweaks. * /r/Rengarmains
u/xshepherd /u/RiotRepertoir some ideas on how to balance Rengar and put him more into the assasin Role. **Passive :** Unseen Predator: While in...
This post is for the attention of Riot Repertoir and all other champion designers responsible for reworking Rengar. I would like to approach this topic maturely and in some detail to help you guys understand (a) why Rengar mains don't like the rework for the reason the champion is so strong right now (most Rengarmains would prefer the old Q but we will not discuss this here), (b) why Rengar mains feel the identity of the champion has been lost (is not an assassin similarly to other assassins in the rework), (c) what makes the champion so strong right now (namely the existence of the Bruiser build which is successful to the existence of Black Cleaver and CC immunity), (d) the significant design issues created as a result of that build in conjunction with the state of Rengar (and accessibility issues associated), (e) suggest how to repair these issues with the champion. With regards to the thread linked I would like to discuss some of the feedback given by Riot Games with regards to the new Rengar Rework. I will speak on behalf of the "subreddit", RengarMains which serves as a large repository of knowledge (from mechanics and itemization, to the identity of the champion as the players perform in a sense of a kind that they are masters of the champion Rengar and identify with the champion and his lore as summoners). It is reasonable for all intensive purposes to posit "rengarmains" or "the subreddit" as your expert users of the champion (those who are not the introductory novice users). I understand ideally we want to design in ways to cater to both playerbases. The subreddit currently understands CC immunity is what drives the full tank Rengar Black Cleaver bruiser train. Rengar is so strong because you can go full-tank and get hit by any number of stun abilities, remove them, and continue to get kills or peel the ADC. It's pretty common knowledge that we don't need anything but Black Cleaver to fulfil the assassin role: we actually just build Black Cleaver as the only damage item and then we can do as much damage to ADC's effectively as we would an assassin. Why? It's primarily because Rengar can land all stacks of black cleaver in the duration of a fight without any consequences. Nerfing Q damage won't matter, we'll still keep one shotting ADC's even on lower AD scaling ratios using CC immunity and HP resets. The subreddit agrees removing the W would not only nerf assassin Rengar (making it rewarding to play and identify much more like an assassin) but would make the bruiser build much weaker too (whereas assassin rengar is the design choice for Rengar we want to support). This would feel good (we would actually have to plan out our kills again), which as you might have guessed is what we want (but with all due respect the subreddit cannot identify that you want methodological assassins rather than button smashing ones). [One counter argument can be derived by quoting Riot Shepard in this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Rengarmains/comments/5me2gt/some_thoughts_from_rengar_tweaks/dc33qke/)... > > RiotShepard: "We tested W with just a cleanse and it was pretty awful- there's often more than one source of CC when diving, and a single slow was often enough to lock down Assassin Rengar to be blasted." The high-ELO Rengar mains would counter-argue, that's only if you're bad at Rengar and you (to be blunt) just mash your keyboard. Assassins have ALWAYS been balanced around CC. The way you would beat them is by being stunned .etc. To illustrate, It's how you deal with Master Yi, Kha'Zicks .etc. I can guarantee that if you removed the CC immunity (and even the cleanse), Rengar would drop out of the water in high ELO, wouldn't be as easy to pick up, and this would satisfy the members the subreddit insofar that Rengar would be difficult to use again. For more information on this see [this post on the subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/Rengarmains/comments/5hzqwb/where_i_feel_the_rework_went_wrong/db4g5bc/) where I discuss in detail why this would be the case. The post makes clear... > Myself: /r/RengarMains isn't unhappy because he is worse, we're unhappy because he's so much stronger he's no longer required to be fluid in order to do damage, so much that it completely makes redundant the requirement to position well in the first place (which we used to do very much). Requirements to position well seem favourable to assassins and canonical of other assassins in the class: Yi/Kha/Fizz all need to position properly to not be hit by CC. But to quote Riot Shepard... > Riot Shepard: Removing CC immunity is actually a big nerf to Assassin Rengar, and if anything that's the play pattern we would want to support. This seems to circumvent requirements to position properly and the requirement to build enough damage to kill the enemy squishy targets *before* you get CC'd and die. The subreddit would argue that nerfing assassin rengar in this way would be consistent with the assassin class and more inconsistent with the bruiser class (which as quoted is what we want) by raising the following points... The subreddit can posit, crowd control has ALWAYS been the main enemy. A "single slow" was always enough for the old Rengar to be blasted (even a single Draven E was sufficient to stop Rengar). I can guarantee a Rengarmain knows how to play around that because that was a huge part of the traditional play style. This means you might have tested it, but this the kind of change which is going to need to be tested by *experienced highly skilled rengar mains* before you can adequately observe how much of a nerf it is to assassin rengar in terms of win rates. Members of the subreddit feel this attitude creates a design flaw. In terms of Rengar's interactions in comparison to all champions of all champion classes, it seems like the kind of nerf Rengar needs in order to be more consistent with the existing class of assassin champions and less consistent with the existent class of bruiser champions... It is inconsistent for Riot to let other assassins such as Kha and Yi be stunned: low ELO players will try to stun a full AD Rengar in virtue of the fact they can stun Master Yi, or Kha'Zicks. In particular, this inconsistency is a design problem for low ELO players, [the fact Rengar can just build tank items and be immune to any crowd control effects and pick off an ADC from the middle of a fight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ValThDfj0Gk) betrays that intuition or expectation they would have of Rengar when encountering him with little experience of the meta-game (and it still does, from anecdotal evidence a lot of the time in lower ELO games you see players trying to stun or one shot a Rengar). Another design issue is in itemization: assassins who build full-tank that can also one shot enemy players, who knew! The solution would be to have that CC immunity removed (giving back an assassin identity and making the bruiser build much much less effective [its hard to stack BC on an enemy when you are stunned being blasted]) or be reclassified as not an assassin in League of Legends and more along the lines of an Olaf or Darius with CC immunity (the current itemization path which is effectively BC and full-tank certainly lends towards this interpretation). The fact that Rengar's design does not identify with other assassins given total CC immunity is one consideration since it creates accessibility issues for players playing against him. The fact that the most efficient build for Rengar is a build that identifies best with the bruiser class is another cause for concern. **Conclusion** In conclusion and focusing on the latter part of the quote... > Riot Shepard: [Assassin Rengar] is the play pattern we would want to support. Hopefully the reasons stipulated above are sufficient to illustrate you have went in the wrong direction by giving assassins complete CC immunity: you create inconsistencies in design, you remove the assassin identity and replace it with a bruiser identity (keyboard smashing action as opposed to old Rengarmains who very much played like assassins in the sense they needed to time team fights engagements properly and avoid being hit by CC) which carries to itemization (Rengarmains don't even need to build assassin items to kill ADC's in the middle of a fight due to the existence of Black Cleaver in conjunction to CC immunity). Similarly it might be argued as what drives Olaf into being as strong as he is without items when he starts snowballing: Olaf builds full tank and a Hydra for auto attack resets and damage, he is able to do true damage (similarly to the current state of Rengar with BC and CC immunity there is no requirement to build any assassin items). Putting design issues aside, we can learn (and it's pretty common knowledge in meta) **it doesn't matter how much you improve assassins in terms of itemization on the whole, as long as factors such as BC (sufficient for damage) + armour or tank stat stacking exists in ways such that they aren't punishable on a champion it makes no sense to build those champions as an assassins**. [To illustrate, considering other champions as illustrations Yi/Kha won't get away with it as much since they will get stunned and die (which is what assassins ought to be like), in Rengar's case as a result of CC immunity and HP resets Rengar doesn't *even* get punished by CC and can reset HP for however much he lost **as a full tank**, Darius or Renekton can life-steal it away and don't need other items to 'assassinate' squishy targets with .etc.]( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ValThDfj0Gk) For only Rengar it would be appropriate to remove CC immunity so he can be punished for being caught retain an assassin build order (again putting design issues attributed to Rengar's closer identity as a bruiser aside). My personal opinion is overall it could be much healthier to the game to simply nerf the Black Cleaver, to make these kinds of builds less viable on the whole. If none of these changes are approved, the question remains why is this inconsistency better than identifying assassins with having high-risk playstyles. Can I respectfully ask the design leaders to comment on the above?
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