: You know that Frozen + Randuin's doesn't stack right?
That's why I wrote Frozen/Randuin's, not Frozen + Randuin's.
: You actualy linked a lolwiki post that explains why you are wrong Quote from your link: "What this means: by definition, armor does not have diminishing returns in regard of effective hitpoints, because each point increases the unit's effective health against physical damage by 1% of its current actual health whether the unit has 10 armor or 1000 armor. " And talking about the passive (30% reflect before armor reductions) an adc needs 30% lifesteal AFTER armor reduction to actualy bypass it aka 45%+ lifesteal witch never happens. A bit less because the refected damage is reduced by the HUGE magic resist pool of the carry(jk)
Huh, true. Still underwhelming though, as I said in another comment in an avarage situation on the carry having 100 MR, 200 AD, and 20%LS, with doing the average damage of 120 your Thornmail will do 6 damage / hit.
: so what are the bad things about me? that i know more about champs, that i know more about items, that i know more about the gameplay? that i know more about my lane? what you say dont make any, but for real any sence... somebody that played more matches, and won more, KNOWS MORE! COS HE WON MORE, and plays more!
Let's try another example. Not sure if you play football or other sports but let's go with football. You play football for 10 years, and you get to division 4 (out of 6 divisions where 1 is the best). A new guy plays for 1 year and also gets to division 4. Who is the better football player?
: > That is true, but I do feel, that an ADC should not take you out mindlessly just because there is lifesteal in the his build Its not just the life steal, its because they have their core items. An AD with a Bloodthirster/Bork and nothing else won't take down a tank easily or "Mindlessly." An AD with a BT/Bork and a PD/Shiv won't take down a tank similarly as quick. Though at a certain point, ADC's itemize for huge crit damage and can blow through you very fast. That is the point, they're a carry. You either have to take them out immediately with CC + burst damage (likely combination of help from your team) or they'll just cut through you, that is why they're called Carrys. Before the Tank Meta, people were crying that Tanks die to quickly. Now in the Tank Meta, there are people who are crying that ADC's can't do their job even at later stages of the game - not able to cut through tanks so quick and easy. And of course, there are people who are saying the exact opposite. Tanks aren't meant to be able to withstand or kill a late game Carry. Though they're meant to provide enough of a threat that the Carry has to spend several precious seconds burning through your HP and huge resists so that your team can either get to the carry and kill them or kill the carries team. Until this late game point where the carry has a near-full build however, most Tanks who haven't fallen behind, will be a dangerous threat that is difficult to kill and Thornmail will amplify that threat. But, whatever I guess. Mostly the arguments are down to peoples different opinions of what Tanks should or shouldn't be able to do in the game. Some people think Tanks should be juggernauts who should be nearly unkillable and others feel differently.
Yeah, but you can't really start with Thornmail, you'll have to get some HP and some of your core items first (jungler items or some minimal AP, depending on what you play), so by the the time you put out your Thornmail, the ADC will have their core ready to negate it. All in all, yeah, it's an oppinion, somehow it just doesn't "feel as good" to build a Thornmail as other Armor items. But I'm not sure why people are flipping their wigs over what I suggested, if we stick with the example I said earlier (200 AD, 20% LS, 100 MR, 120 Damage), then all it does is buff your Thornmail damage from 6 / shot to 12 /shot for 3 seconds...
: i dont know how many hands i need to facepalm myself................................. so here is the deal though. my over 750 winning games, is experiance on over 750 winning matches. that means, i played against every champ multiple times, that means i know there spells, i know the ulti, i know there builds. and i know how to deal with them, what items to buy, so he cant kill me tha easyly. so, your 100 winning games, tells me, you didnt play against all champs, you dont know much about other champs, and there spells. you dont know, how to correlty lead your lane, of course you didnt practise enough. so skill isnt only playing the most difficult champ that LoL has! no skill is knowing everything about your champ, other champs, lane, map, role, and items.
You are assuming everyone is learning at the same speed. To give you a not irl example, imagine you are in an RPG game, gaining XP for every game. You at your learning speed gain 5 XP per game, while some other dude, who happens to be more talented, gains 50XP for everymatch he playes (learns faster). That means you have to play 10 times as much games as him. That sucks, but that's how it is. Saying you have 750 won games, and another guy has 100 yet you are in the same division actually says bad things about you, not him. Also consider he might be smurfing.
: If you are getting out traded by an adc with life steal something is wrong with your build in general not just thornmail. If the adc builded last whisper then your armor is pretty much F*cked anyways. and if you don't have lifesteal too then you should have build hydra or bloodthirster which synergizes well with thornmail. About the Vayne and Kalista problem Corki is a good one to add to that as well, here's when you don't build thornmail! Like i said Champs that benefit from AA's something like jinx, or draven the ADCS who solely focus on hitting you with AA's not with passives and AA's so no true damagers or % health damages, or stackables like vayne, varus and kalista. You build Thornmail, when there are more than 2 ADCS in the enemy team, like ashe top and jinx bot. When the enemy team has something like Yi or jax in it as well as a adc not stated in my above list. champions like Aatrox suffer from getting hit by thornmail cause it will minimize the health they gain. Hope informed you enough on your misuse of thornmail
Thank you, but I am aware that Thornmail is against AD autoattack champions :) But as you yourself said it's good when there is an Ashe top and a Jinx bot. Which, let's be honest, doesn't happen very often. It is a very niche item in it's current state, and even in games where the enemy is full AD (like I said in my opening post) I often find myself buying Sunfire + Randuin/Frozen heart instead of Thornmail. Which is not a good sign.
Exzlu (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bubi a Cica,realm=EUNE,application-id=ln3nNJrX,discussion-id=ZsXEikE7,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-06-19T08:53:10.034+0000) > > Hello! > > **Intro:** > I would like to speak about Thornmail {{item:3075}} for a moment. While I don't think the current version of the Thornmail is useless, I do feel it's a bit underpar when comparing to other items like Randuin's Omen {{item:3143}} or Frozen Heart {{item:3110}}. Why? Cause these other items have a better special benefit (ability) and provide roughly the same armor as Thornmail. Their prices accurately reflect this. > > **Problem** > Now, when in a game, against a normal team you will probably never take Thornmail, and that's fine. But even against a full AD team the benefits of the other 2 items arguably hinder the abilities of enemy ADs better than Thornmail. So even when against the team it was meant against, most people (including me) will get Randuin or Frozen Heart first and only consider Thornmail after. > > **Reason** > Thornmail in itself offers survivability only in the form of Armor, where as Randuin gives you a significant amount of HP, a nice a passive and a nice active. Same with Frozen heart, not only armor, but mana sustain and CDR. Both debuff the enemy team, while Thornmail is only for you. > Thornmail's damage feedback sadly becomes insignificant because of Magic Resist, and cause the people you are targeting, probably have huge amount of lifesteal from: {{item:3072}} or {{item:3153}} or {{item:3074}} . They basically heal more, than you damage them, cause of the MR and Lifesteal together. So all you are doing is not letting enemy ADs heal up on you. > > **Suggestion** > Give Thornmail an active or a bonus passive (for maybe even an increased cost). > > Example active: > **Bleed out:** UNIQUE, For 5 seconds any enemy Champion that hits you with a basic attack recieves a grevious wound for 3 seconds. Cooldown: 120 secs > > Example passive: > ** Blood rights:** UNIQUE, Enemy champions cannot lifesteal from you. > > Well that's about it, I hope someone actually considers it. Thornmail gives 30% damage back before armor will be reduced so its good. It dont need buff even if they build either blade of ruined king or hydra. They still cant heal its full damage what they get. But like fiora, its true that some champs can build both of those or enough life steal to not get hurt at all from thornmail but here comes decision making. Do you want reduce your damage to get life steal and not to die to thornmail or do you build only one LS item and get more critical strike/AA/Armor pen. As long as enemy ad carries dont have 30% life steal, thornmail is pretty useful and yes, thornmail never is first item for reason. thornmail is always my 3rd or 4th item in build beacuse thornmail is morelike team fight tank item than 1v1 item. And it really depends enemy team ad champions. If you build Thornmail as first item then you are either too afraid of AD or its useful moments disappears or just bad at build order. Comparing thornmail to omen and frozen heart is kinda meh. Beacuse Omen and frozen hearts are made for reason. They give you early sustain that thornmail dont give. Thornmail is those "late game" items if situation needs it. So stop whining that thornmail is "not so good than omen and frozen heart" and those champions that dont have mana/any resource or those tanks (shen as example) which uses energy/other resource than mana. Do you build for them frozen heart? (answer is NO). Thornmail is for those champions pretty good pick with omen and fire cape (fire cape is in same situation as thornmail when you think about it. you get hp,armor and aoe damage passive yes but firecape passive can be countered with life steal like thornmail passive but yes fire cape gives you survivability but lose in armor to thornmail). Thornmail is as good as it is right now. There is no need for buff beacuse even if you cant use its full potential yet, you find way to use it later. Sometimes thornmail is just good to pick up instead of omen as item. its just about situation you go in. I'm not pro player myself and i might not always know, what i'm talking about but many pro players uses thornmail as situational item. Yes its bad in some situations if enemies has more ap than ad or they have high life steal but if they have only blade of the ruined king or only hydra in their build. They cannot fully heal thornmail damage. Tanks can counter thornmail by building MR (i think so beacuse thornmail does magic damage) but thornmail is used to counter carries if they focus tanks to take enough damage, rest of team kill them. Which champions do you build thornmail? beacuse its really important to think which champions benefits best from thornmail.
As you said, I build Thornmail as a 4th or 5th item, after Randuin's, Sunfire or Frozen heart, depending on situation. If I buy it, I buy it on Rammus or Amumu (rarely Cho top). And getting it late is exactly the problem. When you get it you already have 130-180 armor (depends on runes, build, champion etc), so getting an extra 100 armor benefits you less. (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor - the mmore armor you have the less it protects you) Meaning you get Thornmail mainly for it's passive, which is not all that great (as I described in an example somehere here).
: Thornmail is a great pick up. I repeatedly see the argument about how Life Steal makes it useless. However, that goes both ways; Their life steal becomes useless/less effective. The Lifesteal is now to busy healing the reflected damage that they're not healing from your other abilities. Generally the reason why ADC's out-scale tanks is because their DPS gets to high and they can life steal through your damage to easily, this is why Thornmail is a decent item to get.
That is true, but I do feel, that an ADC should not take you out mindlessly just because there is lifesteal in the his build (which every ADC has) which is outscales (or scales evenly with) your Thornmail every time. The suggested active would at least give him/her something to think about, not just blindly AA as fast as he can. Example: ADC with 200 AD and 100 MR will take 30 damage per shot from Thornmail. Let's say he hits you for 120 actual damage with 20% Lifesteal. So basicly you are doing 6 damage per shot. That's... not too good. Yes, as you said you basicly take out his lifesteal, but if he is forced to shoot the tank anyway then he pobably doesn't even need it (cause too far back or got separated). Also, ADCs as of late tend to bypass doing damage with autoattack, just think Vayne with her stacking circles, or Kalista.
: Make this test: Custom game with a friend. Build for yourself a) Build ninja Ts / Thornsmail / sunfire (1000 + 2100 + 2600 -> 5700g) b) Randuin's O. / Frozen Heart / sunfire (2850 + 2450 + 2600 -> 7900g) Have your friend AA you to death. Compare the ressults.
That doesn't really make sense cause of many reasons, firstly because you want to compare a damage item to a non-damage items, secondly because armor has diminishing returns, thirdly because it has nothing to do with what I suggested. Not sure what you point is. If you want to do comparisons, you should do something like: For instance: 1. Calculate how much DPS loss does Frozen heart does in an avarage teamfight (good luck with that) 2. Calculate how much damage does Thornmail does in a teamfight 3. Avarage both on the same gold level with adding value for the bonus armor for Thornmail, and the mana, CDR, passive for the Frozen heart 4. Compare But yeah, that sounds pretty hard if not impossible to do.
Rioter Comments
: I still think the heal shrines should do something when enemies stomp them. Damn, they could probably simply deal their heal + ms buff as damage+slow without being broken. But apparently that's not how Riot plans to buff Bard. A couple other patches and he'll just be a walking passive+Q with 3 bad utility spells.
Agreed, if they also functioned as "Teemo shrooms" it would make a whole lot of difference, and maybe would even be worth getting AP.
Vasquez39 (EUW)
: I can´t agree with comparisons like this. Logic like this applied to adcs, tanks, mages, assassins... I can understand, but not to supports. You don´t pick a support based on the fact that his heals are better than others and stuff. You pick them based around what your team needs, or if you think their general role fits a team well. Leona is supposed to be a tanky support with tons of CC for engagement and locking down a target. So of course she is going to be better than Bard at that: It´s her role! Soraka is supposed to be a heal bot. All of her kit is design around healing, so of course she will be better than Bard at that: It´s her role! You can aplly similar logic to others. Taric is an anti-AD tank, with a healing utility. Thresh´s role is similar to Leona´s, although he sacrifices a bit of CC to have a tool thata allows others to catch up to him. Lulu is sorta of a disabling machine. She has a weird role, but she´s fun. Janna is for disengagents and protection. And so on and on and on. Bard has problems. The biggest one, for me, it´s the reason why he will never be viable in solo Q unless he gets a 200%ap ration on meeps damage: He´s too versatile. He is design to work around a team that communicates so your teammates can expect your moves. If I see a Leona with ult using E on the enemy adc I know exactly what will come next. If I see a Thresh hooking someone with his Q and flying in, I know exactly what comes next. If I get in a in a fight at level 6 with the enemy duo bot and My soraka has her ult, I know exactly what comes next. Maybe Leona will fail, maybe Thresh will Flay the wrong way, maybe Soraka will forget to press R, but I know what these characters do. With Bard... I don´t. I´m not sure if he will use is E correctly, I´m not sure he will land the stun instead of the slow, and especially, I have no idea how he will use his ult. That´s the biggest problem, he is too unpredictable. My best games with him were when playing with Premades through Skype. Not because I was playing with friends instead of strangers, but because they knew exactly what I would do with my R, and yes, it is a game changer. Bard will never be soloQ viable. Period. EDIT: Also, another thing you totally forgot about Bard´s W, and it makes all the difference: It can stack. I place 3 shrines behind my turret. The lane is somewhat pushed in the enemy´s favour. My adc gets caught in a hook and loses half his HP. Walk for a bit and dum dum 70 + 70 + 70hp back (assuming you have no AP and have the skill at level 1) This is Ten times better than anything Lulu, Taric, Janna and even Nami can do heal related
The comparisons are only there to emphasize the final tought: That there is no team composition or situation when you would choose Bard over any other support (granted you are playing to win). I agree, that Bard would be a better pick in a premade 5 man team. But even then, why would you choose him? I have not forgotten about that you can pre-place the shrines, I just find it kinda useless outside early game, and even then, it's not all that great. It's good for getting your jungler a bit of a boost, but when an actual fight starts in botlane, your ADC won't be running for the shrines, he/she needs active healing, which you cannot provide. You got an instaheal for 30/60/90 (lvl 1-2-3), and if you have time to get into position, you got a 1 second stun. And that's early game, when it is supposed to be most useful. In late game aside from the speedboost (which is nice), your heal is laughable. And we are back to the same conclusion again: all other supports have a bigger role in actively supporting in a teamfight. Why would I pick Bard? (Sidenote: Lately I don't even build him for AP, cause it only effects 3 skills, and it doesn't make much of a difference - I get a {{item:3070}} early, and upgrade to {{item:3004}} . You'll get a Muramana by the ~25 min mark, and it's suprisingly good).
: I'd wait a bit because those 5.7 buffs are HUUUGE. The base stats Oo.
Yeah, I guess we'll see in 1-2 weeks, but I have a feeling he'll hit 42% winrate maybe, and stop there.
Bubi a Cica (EUNE)
: Bard feedback
Edited and updated a bit.
Rioter Comments
Adalvar (EUW)
: Tristana's Explosive Charge is too slow
Meh. E was not worth it before the change, and it's not worth it now sadly (unless on towers). Maybe with higher projectile travel (from E) and NO CASTTIME at all, it would be good.
Bubi a Cica (EUNE)
: Bard feedback
Well, he's been out for almost a month now. Still maintining the lowest winrate. Still think people need to l2p, or it might be, that Bard kinda sucks?
: Best, fun and favourite champions...
1. Best with: {{champion:50}} 2. Most fun with: {{champion:432}} (if not disabled, and buff pls) 3. Best personality: {{champion:33}} I also love Bard for not speaking.
Mick4882 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bubi a Cica,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=EElFNTqt,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-03-27T10:09:31.357+0000) > > I may suck with him (I doubt it really - I can see when I've played bad), but that doesn't really explain why Bard has the lowest win % in LoL currently. Since last patch, his win % boosted up from 34% to 38%. Yay? Because people tend to give up before they even give the champion a chance. This is a champion that has to be learned, with really hard mechanics and tons of strategic diversity. so many strategics on bard. The champ gets released, people can't play the champ because it's too difficult, people blame the champion is bad (when they are the problem, they are just bad), people stop playing the champ, winrate stays low. Easyy logic there.
I'm real glad you you can judge how much time, effort, tought, builds etc. I have put into Bard. I'm also glad that you know exactly what my skill level is not only with him but with all Supports in general. You must be an oracle. Even Riot said Bard is bad atm, thus they have buffed him, and said he will recieve more buffs in the future (see patch notes). And please. Just do a few comparisons with other supports, and see how well Bard holds up: Eg.: Leona ult vs. Bard ult Any heal vs. Bard heal Taric stun vs. Bard stun Soraka damage vs. Bard damage In every single aspect, Bard falls behind. His great utility doesn't make up for it. By far.
: Because he isn't a easy champion to play (unlike some *cough* {{champion:238}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:105}} *cough*)
Actually, Zed and Fizz has a below 50% win rate, Riven slightly above. Your difficulty scale doesn't seem to have an impact. With that said, Bard is not rocket science either. Your abilities (cause of the huge cooldowns) are pretty limited.
: I think the current problem at the moment with bard is that he lacks in everything except utility (which you get at level 6, to be worthwhile). His biggest issue being a combination of lacking defensive stats & having high wind-up times on his passive and his shrines. He has 1 damage spell, his Q, which is kinda slow and short-ranged, meaning you need to be pretty up-close allowing the enemy ADC and Support to always out-trade you, at any given situation (goodluck playing against Thresh with his E passive). Aside from that, your auto-attacks are only worthwhile while you have meeps, and like you mentioned, the respawn/cool-down on them is way too high to be considered something you can rely on (another way to view this is that you're going to be collecting chimes throughout the game, yet you can only see the benefit of them with a gap of 11 seconds, so in an ideal situation you're landing 5 empowered auto attacks a minute which seems very underwhelming for something that is core to his gameplay & identity). That said, for a champion that is not tanky in anyway (unless you build him like that, which will require you having 2 - 3 items), I do believe Bard is lacking. Your Health shrines do give some sustain, once again, something that grants utility (movement speed buff + heal), however the wind-up time of 10 seconds is pretty insane considering the mana-cost and the bad scaling. This is slightly negated by the fact that you can have 3 up at any given time, but the cool-down is too high on them without any form of serious CDR, and by the time you have enough CDR it usually won't matter anymore (since you won't be in lane anymore and the wind-up time is as mentioned, just too long). The true strength of Bard is his E and R, I love his E, I think it's one of the best designed abilities in the game, his R is game changing if you manage to land it properly (landing it in a way that the whole enemy team aside from 1 or maybe 2 members get hit, so your team has a gap to 5 v 1 / 2 is pretty retarded - but people can jump/flash out of it easily, so it's quite hard to pull it off, but extremely rewarding. Not to mention the troll-factor is hilarious).
Haha, yeah, the trolling potential is awesome. I managed to steal Baron last game, with Ulting 5 enemies, portaling in, Q + AAing Baron. It made me cry in laughter.
Mick4882 (EUW)
: I'm sorry to break it to you, but you might just be really really bad. I played bard 10 games, and im currently 6/4 with him in ranked. Bard is fine as a support, but i think your support skills are not that good.
I may suck with him (I doubt it really - I can see when I've played bad), but that doesn't really explain why Bard has the lowest win % in LoL currently. Since last patch, his win % boosted up from 34% to 38%. Yay?
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Bubi a Cica

Level 30 (EUNE)
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