: The system is perfect, and you just need to play enough games, and get better. Unless you got proof, that the game is rigged for some people to lose, then all argument is invalid since your chance to get bad/good teammates is the same. Also there is no possible way to make individual skill rewarded without making the system abusable.
I'm not talking about matchmaking or my personal games. I tried to avoid this so people would get my point. Dude I'm pretty sure you did not read anything I said here. My point is that ranked system is outdated and both soloq and flex needs a rework. Flex should be more closer to team based ranked system we should play the same way in flex like pro's do play. and solo q also needs a rework to focus more on individual skill because your individual performance is reflected by either ur team is winning with you or not.
: That "ez win" is a result of having an enemy team who on paper matches your teams MMR, yet game statistic will tell you they suck a donkey's ass to high heaven. The problem lies in a seriously bad match making, as it does not take game statistics into account, if it atleast did that I could understand the current team-wide MMR matching.., but since it doesn't utilize game-relevant statistics, the team-wide MMR system flat out stinks.
yeah the mmr system is kinda ass. but it's not that bad. In my opinion the game has evolved a lot but the system is more less the same and it also should evolve.
Rioter Comments
Shamose (EUW)
: Not really a surprise. But nice to get it confirmed.
Jesi Oni (EUNE)
: I would play MMO... I will not play fighter game~ unless they will link it to LOL launcher like TFT😝
Making good mmo is really hard and in order to make it successful they need to compete with WOW and FF XIV. Its way too risky and leagues universe is not developed enough for that, mayne they will do it in the future.
Cypherous (EUW)
: We don't need to know any details, making a decent fighting game isn't easy, riot can't even properly balance league what makes you think they can balance something where actual skill is involved :P And like i said, they have a lot of very established competition with no previous experience in this genre, i'm not sure how they expect to be taken seriously when the only game they have made has ended up becoming a toxic cesspool, i mean i will watch what they make but i'm not going to be buying it :P
Riot hired a studio for that. Also we dont know really know anything about the game. And the game balance argument is terrible man, its like saying a studio cant balance moba because they made racing games. About experience everyone starts from something, lets say in the beginning the game will suck but they will improve it. Also league is not ez to balance, its ez to trash talk riots balance team but cmon u dont see anything behind the scene.
Cypherous (EUW)
: Bwahahaha Yeah goodluck with that riot, i'm not sure you quite understand how competitive the fighting game scene is and you have some very serious competition, and having seen riots code in league, well lets just say, i'll pass :P
We dont know a single detail about upcoming new game, dont forget league is almost 10 years old xD
Rioter Comments
: master yi , diana , tryndamere , udyr , jax , irelia , volibear , yorick , teemo are all stathecky champions and there are more of them when you think about it , statcheck was not a special case for old aatrox , also you had to know to toggle your w and he had technically 2 skillshots where as udyr an yi has literally no skillhots basically point and click , so stop with your bs ty.
Yeah man! You tell 'em buddy!
: Old Aatrox wasn’t healthy, the goal of the aatrox rework was to remove the old kit not to add a new one... he was toxic and stat checky and frankly given his dominance just before his rework Riot would have nerfed him into oblivion if he didn’t get reworked when he did. There’s no point in reverting new aatrox the rework was a huge success... though they should have kept the revive it was pretty pivotal to his playstyle both before and after the rework. And the revive wasn’t the only thing kept. At this point we are only missing blood price and E... his Q is still on his Q as the third Q is litterally the same minus the dash (and if you use E you’ve got the same ability), his blood thirst W is now his passive, and his ult is practically the same minus the damage and replacing the attack speed for ad. The idea that he’s gone is not true, while it’s a different playstyle all they got rid of was the three hit W and an ability nobody cared for...
> Old Aatrox wasn’t healthy, the goal of the aatrox rework was to remove the old kit not to add a new one... he was toxic and stat checky and frankly given his dominance just before his rework Riot would have nerfed him into oblivion if he didn’t get reworked when he did. Old Aatrox wasn't in great state, but he wasn't toxic lol. The goal of every rework is to fix a kit or add something more to it especially if it's already good and only lacking something. if they wanted to delete Aatrox they might as well make a new champion. > There’s no point in reverting new aatrox the rework was a huge success... though they should have kept the revive it was pretty pivotal to his playstyle both before and after the rework. I'm not sure if he's rework was a huge success people didn't liked it at first, and he already was changed and nerfed a lot. Wouldn't call this successful rework. his revive wasn't that important as it was his engage and w. you could choose to be a more safer player or aggressive one. Right now u just try to time ur combos correctly. > And the revive wasn’t the only thing kept. At this point we are only missing blood price and E... his Q is still on his Q as the third Q is litterally the same minus the dash (and if you use E you’ve got the same ability), his blood thirst W is now his passive, and his ult is practically the same minus the damage and replacing the attack speed for ad. his third q is not the same as old q. It's literally different. Just watch the animation or something, you clearly don't see this design at all. his old q was a jump and dash with knock up it was all in 1 ability, meanwhile for new Aatrox to get this u have to use ur q 3 times and dash with ur e. Right now he has riven's q, there's nothing similar to old Aatrox. his current passive is not the same as his old w. right now u just get some heal for 1 auto attack in like 20 seconds and u mutilate an enemy. As Old aatrox u could get heal every third aa or bonus damage. totally the same passive :D His ult is not the same, it's similar but not the same, it used to be more movement speed, more damage and attack speed, right now it's just more movement speed and healing. totally the same. > The idea that he’s gone is not true, while it’s a different playstyle all they got rid of was the three hit W and an ability nobody cared for... They got rid of his w, of his old q, e and they changed ult. basically nothing is left there. And there is people that cared about this abilities you're clearly not giving facts, you're just bias right now. If u didn't liked old Aatrox that doesn't mean others didn't liked him as well. Overall it's there's no traces of old Aatrox. the fact that his playstyle is so different tell us that they %%%%ed up this rework. If u view it in a popularity then yes Aatrox is played more, but if u look at the perspective of a game developer then this rework is just a failure. Imagine you play Aatrox for 5 years and then suddenly he's no more. These people don't like it trust me.
: What’s the point... the goal of a rework is to remove toxic kits from the game, if you added it back in along side the new one your back at square one. Aatrox was removed because he deserved to be removed, had nothing to do with the new kit.
You say those things as if first they are facts which they're not, secondly you're not a game developer You shouldn't talk about reworks like you know 100% why they're made. > What’s the point... the goal of a rework is to remove toxic kits from the game, if you added it back in along side the new one your back at square one. The point is to improve a character, not to delete him or throw him away, but to update it to a more modern state. Good example is urgot and warwick reworks. They didn't changed a lot they just added more. There's a saying you don't need to fix what's working great already. If something is great u don't change it u just add something more to it. These character's don't even have toxic kit's they were outdated especially warwick's kit. Aatrox was fine nor he had a toxic kit xD. Toxic kit argument does not make sense at all. > Aatrox was removed because he deserved to be removed, had nothing to do with the new kit. He was removed because it was way too hard to balance Aatrox for riot. Riot is always reworking something if they can't balance it. It's not because it was deserved to be done, but because it had to be done, or riot wasn't good enough with their character development and balancing.
: > [{quoted}](name=Composure,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8uARrEmQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-17T20:25:19.168+0000) > > reverting aatrox into older would be better most people liked him that way, making old aatrox into new champ just doesnt work to me, they can do that with new aatrox. rito can do everything they rewerted myne things , like zac or ryze i guess the people who play aatrox should learn riven XD
well the new aatrox is more harder and balanced version of riven anyway xD
: I think a cooler ideal would to be make them two separate characters, create a new model with the same spells of old Aatrox and everyone happy. I personally think removing new aatrox would be unfair ( even though I GREATLY prefer the previous one.)
reverting aatrox into older would be better most people liked him that way, making old aatrox into new champ just doesnt work to me, they can do that with new aatrox.
Rioter Comments
: Electrocute rune patch 9.14
: chat restrict
This definitely should not be 2 weeks ban. Chat restriction max. You were toxic, but it wan't that bad. Unless you got chat restriction before, then a 2 week ban will follow up. Also don't type anything because after 2 weeks ban the next punishment is perma ban. until u recover level 2 honor don't type anything toxic at all. And still once u get back to level 2 honor u still should be careful. It's best if u won't type anything toxic for at least half of year.
Viavarian (EUW)
: These queue times should tell you that they have more than enough testers, so your help with beta testing isn't needed.
yeah enough testers. like pbe is meant only for testing. like there's no testing in live servers anyway...
Shamose (EUW)
: https://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/QOlG1lxO-to-all-of-you-who-cant-get-into-the-pbe
dude it's not the same as waiting for a few hours or even little bit more, but waiting almost entire 24 hours is bs. there's no excuses for that or oh it's just pbe server.
Rioter Comments
: To all of you, who can't get into the PBE
dude I waited 5 hours for the mode. but right now I have to wait for 17 hours. this is bs.
Kill2one (EUW)
: Picking Yuumi in ranked is greifing
Being a meta slave is a shame
: as i said, i don't trust them anymore. for what it's worth, the whole system may be in place just to ban accounts that have a lot of skins to make them buy the skins again, or giving a lesser punishment to players who reguraly spend tons of money on the game ("unfortunately" i can't afford to spend 100+ euros each month on this thing). it's obvious now that they give conflicting informations and they do that WHEN THEY FEEL LIKE saying something about these things, otherwise it's radio silence and "oh we can't tell you that because...uh...privacy". what's next? Grades are actually RNG? honor is RNG? how can we trust them again now?
reading all of this makes me feel like this music does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVJGh51wR7k
Killbeam (EUW)
: In theory, some players could have been playing the new champ on PBE for hours and hours. The problem isn't that someone is playing a new champ, but that they play a champ they have no idea how to play. If a Darius main suddenly picked Quinn without knowing how to play her, that would be just as bad (or worse) than someone playing Yuumi. I think people should stick to the champs they know (pretty) well, yet some people just like to watch the world burn.
> In theory, some players could have been playing the new champ on PBE for hours and hours. That does not matter at all, because there is just some players. And besides PBE environment is just for normal games not for competitive environment. Ur possible counter argument would be that PBE is also made to try out new things. Which is correct. However, PBE is not competitive enough, it's almost the same as playing with bots or blind pick games, but even less competitive not mentioning high ping. > The problem isn't that someone is playing a new champ, but that they play a champ they have no idea how to play. Playing the new champ in a ranked is also a problem. First of all the new champ that comes out of PBE is almost always not properly balanced, because there's not enough players in PBE to make balancing decent. Like most of the times champs come out very weak or very strong. If I'm not mistaken only Kled was out without nerfs or Buffs. There's really no point to let a champ that is still not balanced properly into ranked. It's just terrible idea. if a champ is new and that player played enough of him/her in pbe he has the advantage against enemies thou. creating another problem. That's why it's a problem for new champs to be in ranked. They should make that new champs would not be played in ranked till next patch so that way players had enough time to play as the new and against the new champ in normals. That way more people would test the new champ and it would not be just PBE testing. Once the new champ is released it should be only in normals untill the next patch comes out. I'm surprised Riot is ok with this.
Aezander (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Composure,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=nhKG3PL4,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-23T20:36:03.625+0000) > > I forgot to type that she needs to press her q during her ult. it's more than enough for adc to reposition, because her tumble already moves her a lot and after tumble she can still move a little bit while being invisible so yeah great ability for a hypercarry! and she can use way more when just 1 time. she can use her ult+q at least 3 times that's the same as a Kha'zix lol. An adc with really big damage doesnt need invisibility and she loses the aspect of her being hard to master. because if u misstep or mess up it's possible to "outplay" ur opponents :D Her Q can be used a lot, but it doesn't travel far away. And even the extra bonus speed from it sometimes is not enough. Remove the 1 sec invisibility during Ulti from Vayne and watch her never reach late game ever. {{summoner:31}} > [...]and she can use way more when just 1 time. she can use her ult+q at least 3 times that's the same as a Kha'zix lol.[...] Assuming our example of max Rank Q (base CD of 2 secs), and Shojin's Awakened Dragon duration (6 seconds). At max ranks with Shojin in your inventory Q will have a CD of 0.8 secs (2 -> 20% CDR from item stats -> 1.6 secs CD -> using Ulti gives it a 50% CDR => 0.8 secs ); that means that in theory she can use her Tumble 7.5 times during the 6 sec window Shojin provides, rounded down to 7, maximum. Now, if you think that is gigantic advantage for an ADC that has to a) be careful how she plays it out ergo she might no use all those Q to reposition and attack, but to reposition and survive, and b) needs to be attacking and dealing constant dmg to make it worthwhile ... well, what can I say ... add that you are comparing her **burst type** Assassin like Khazix, who, like all assassins is all about going in burst one target and then jump out, rinse and repeat .... it kinda make for a weird comparison ... dps vs burst ...
> Her Q can be used a lot, but it doesn't travel far away. And even the extra bonus speed from it sometimes is not enough. Remove the 1 sec invisibility during Ulti from Vayne and watch her never reach late game ever. It doesn't travel a lot but it's more than enough for a hyper carry especially when she gets invisibility. She can easily reach the late game with items like rageblade. it's way too good thx to her w. > Assuming our example of max Rank Q (base CD of 2 secs), and Shojin's Awakened Dragon duration (6 seconds). At max ranks with Shojin in your inventory Q will have a CD of 0.8 secs (2 -> 20% CDR from item stats -> 1.6 secs CD -> using Ulti gives it a 50% CDR => 0.8 secs ); that means that in theory she can use her Tumble 7.5 times during the 6 sec window Shojin provides, rounded down to 7, maximum. Now, if you think that is gigantic advantage for an ADC that has to a) be careful how she plays it out ergo she might no use all those Q to reposition and attack, but to reposition and survive, and b) needs to be attacking and dealing constant dmg to make it worthwhile ... well, what can I say ... add that you are comparing her burst type Assassin like Khazix, who, like all assassins is all about going in burst one target and then jump out, rinse and repeat .... it kinda make for a weird comparison ... dps vs burst ... Her late game is even stronger than assassins lol, A hypercarry is called a hypercarry for a reason. That's why I'm comparing a hypercarry with an assassin who has the same ult basically and profits way more and can do way more. Just by being agrresive she gets invisibility, meaning if she uses it correctly it's hard to punish her cos she's invisible and u have to predict where she comes or u will die. Understand this her damage is B.S. especially with rageblade and then there's invisibility part. Having invisibility in league and other games is almost the same as being untargetable. Now Imagine if sivir instead of her e would gain invisibility. it would seem illogical to do it well with the current Vayne I feel the same way.
Marcua (EUW)
: That does not make sense at all. That is like saying to a group of soccer players "If you only play soccer you don't understand the game! You have to play at least 10 games of handball before being able to talk strategy with me about soccer!" Completely nonsense mate. Now that that is out of the way,I will answer your question. Vayne needs her invisibility for a number of reasons. First off she has low range for an ADC, and in a game where there are tons of dmg and cc every game, you will simply not be able to deal any damage as Vayne in a team fight without it. Her tumble giving her invisibility is a completely fair mechanic, that does not make her op, just viable. When that is said, her current state is too strong. Not because of the invisibility though, but because she is too forgiving in the lane phase.
> That is like saying to a group of soccer players "If you only play soccer you don't understand the game! You have to play at least 10 games of handball before being able to talk strategy with me about soccer!" That's not the point. I'm talking about lol more specifically how video games should function. That's why u need more knowledge about games not only league. It's like oh hey I am understand how games works through nothing but league. just playing 1 game gives u narrow viewpoint of gaming as a whole. That's why I'm saying Vayne is toxic to the game in general. In every moba she would be toxic. Also we're in Europe just say football lol. > First off she has low range for an ADC It's not that short lol. > in a game where there are tons of dmg and cc every game, you will simply not be able to deal any damage as Vayne in a team fight without it B.S. My m8 her w deals tons of damge. her e is a defensive option also agressive if she hits stun. her q can be used for both "defensive juking" or closing some gap and getting even more damage. U will deal a lot of damage the invisibility part does not matter. It just makes her even stronger when she gains even more damage from her ult. > Her tumble giving her invisibility is a completely fair mechanic, that does not make her op, just viable. Her tumble's invisibility already makes her complicated to kill, if she could use it only once or 2 times I would not complain that much but she can do it at least 3 times. and this means a lot especially in late game. Like how is it fair to you. When an adc can deal so much damage and melt anyone she wants, is invisibility really that important? > When that is said, her current state is too strong. Not because of the invisibility though, but because she is too forgiving in the lane phase. That's mainly the rageblade item lol, it makes her w way stronger. like she can get w's third auto way faster thx to this item. Once again in late game this means a lot. Secondly items like spear of shojin can be broken on her. Although I haven't seen a single Vayne with it, it may not work on her. When the item like rageblade assist her so much invisibility becomes just way too good for her. they should fix the rageblade nonsense on Vayne or remove invisibility.
Marcua (EUW)
: Ahh, i have found the problem. You lost against a Vayne who popped off 3 days ago. That is fine mate, I fully understand now.
no, that was a smurf lol, I talked to him he was from the same country as I am lol. Don't assume things just from 1 game.
: > Also if u play only league of legends don't bother speaking because u don't understand what is toxic to the game > If u understand only league of legends and nothing else I would like if u could avoid this conversation. That is a very rude approach, pal. Why come to the boards if you do not want talk to League players?
> That is a very rude approach, pal. Why come to the boards if you do not want talk to League players? It may be rude, but I'm not saying I don't want to talk with league players. I want to talk with league players who does not only play league of legends and has some experience with other games because they don't have this narrow viewpoint about game balancing issues and other stuff.
: If you wont accept anyone else's opinion then why talk on boards at all? Lets see {{champion:67}} has a single target knockback and small dash that gives aa buff. Sometimes has invisibility when ulti is on. {{champion:22}} perma-slow and stun {{champion:51}} hard to notice (in a teamfight) snares that gives incredibly power full auto and a jump back with slow {{champion:119}} speed boost every time he catches an axe {{champion:81}} blink on a very low cooldown if he hits his q alot {{champion:202}} massive movespeed bonus every crit, snare if allies damage a champion and an aoe slow that also causes snare {{champion:222}} only has a snare and movespeed stacking with kills for a time {{champion:145}} movespeed bonus, oh look at that, also comes with invisibility and gives attack speed, dash (i think) with shield {{champion:429}} basically vaynes q on every auto {{champion:236}} also just a long dash, but ulti prevents most enemies coming from a certain way {{champion:21}} aoe dot slow and movespeed bonus {{champion:15}} speedbost when hitting an enemy,team speed boost, spell shield {{champion:18}} massive jump with resets, knockback {{champion:110}} aoe slow, mass snare that also gives massive damage boost if used well {{champion:498}} untargetable, main damage source snares That small dash and single target knockback really isnt much is it? >Her w is really strong no one can 1v1 her. Yes. That is almost true. Her q is predictable if you can think fast as it always goes a set distance. Fire a stun to where she is gonna land and she dies, stay away from walls and she cant stun you back. Coming from a 70k vayne main, she needs her invisibility.
> If you wont accept anyone else's opinion then why talk on boards at all? Dude, Everyone has opinions about something, every can disagree with a certain opinion lol. > {{champion:67}} has a single target knockback and small dash that gives aa buff. Sometimes has invisibility when ulti is on. her E is not only a knockback, but a stun if it hits a wall and that's a free kill for Vayne. her q is fine her ult is fine. But her invisibility part is not ok, when u take into account her massive damage and q for gap closing. Also her W is not even mentioned lol arguably the strongest damage tool in her kit, with rageblade it's way too strong lol and invisibility from her ult makes it even worse. Usually I stay away from things like people ranks, elo and skills in conversations like this, because u dont need to be a challenger to understand how game is functioning. But this time I have to bring it up, because when you're a b1 player with 45% win rate on Vayne it's hard to take you seriously enough. I mean if your arguments were at least more thought out I wouldn't mention ur rank at all. Dude if you're still bronze with currently the strongest adc right now it's just hard to take u seriously. Now u compared other adc's with vayne so let me do as well Well then let's begin: {{champion:22}} perma-weak slow, incredible initiation stunning ult, great w, her q is great at team fights, very balanced champion maybe weak in comparison with others but in good hands and great positioning Ashe is simple yet very effective adc. {{champion:51}} really big range, has a lot of stuns that are easy to avoid unless someone stunned u and cait places trap, her passive with that long range can be annoying but nothing game breaking. she has a dash ability. pretty ok champ also boring af. {{champion:42}} Used to be played as adc, he is unique and fun. I would suggest to play him, most league players dont know him u would get out of bronze. {{champion:81}} unique gameplay has big range attacks that are spammable but not broken or anything, unique itemization. overall great champ. {{champion:104}} Used to be adc but now he's pushed to jungle, he's sometimes broken af or just average champ, also fun to play. {{champion:202}} Used to be a cool sniper but his movement speed B.S. is ruining his theme of an actual sniper. He used to be very positioned based champ where every step was really important and hitting ur skills way more important. Right now he's sniperish champ with master yi movement speed. I have issues with how jhin works right now but it's nowhere as bad as vayne is. {{champion:222}} She has fun abilities ez to play and ez to master long range but in comparison with cait she's actually fun to play, not broken or anything but she's a hypercarry. {{champion:145}} The newest adc if im correct lol. She has this hybrid build between ad carry and ap carry. her damage is ok, her w is really long ranged and does tons of damage it's mainly used for her ult or passive. nothing broken yet, she can run a little bit faster with her e and turn invisible if u evolved her e, also u cannot attack while using ur e. she can use her e only once unlike certain adc P.S. Vayne. her ult is great but risky at the same time. Overall great champion unique playstyle rewarding champion once u mastered it. {{champion:96}} he's late game carry. he's not very popular but he's in ok spot. Although he used to be broken af. {{champion:429}} I laughed when u said her passive is literally vayne's q and I understand that lol. her passive is actually not that ez to use and u can't cancel her q meaning u have to be careful or u may end up dead. there's risk in kalista unlike Vayne. {{champion:236}} his early game champ but to me he seems like mid game late game adc tbh. I like his theme and his story his abilities are really good and satisfying to use. Lucian does have 1 of the best designs in league. Like u can do a lot with him but his kit is not overloaded with stuff. like unnecessary invisibility lol. {{champion:21}} She's very old champ but she's ok her ult and bounce deals a lot of damage but u can easily play to avoid it and u have to use someone like {{champion:59}} to get maximum use of her ult. {{champion:133}} Used to be mainly played as adc before adc rework. She's kinda B.S. because as a top laner she's so annoying to deal with, she has the best roaming ability and she can only rival talon in roaming. The champion used to be a lot of fun when u could transform into eagle. But despite the issues she's in the ok spot at least for me :D {{champion:15}} Her damage is ok. She got a {{item:3102}} as her e, but the cd fairly long so im ok with her. her ult is like mini kled ult but u can controll where u run. overall simple but effective champ. really good against blitz and thresh. {{champion:18}} one of the strongest adc's in the game. I don't like her jumping reset it kinda makes her less risky to play, but she's not broken or anything, the revert of crit items made her really strong but once riot fix this I won't have many issues with her only her reset is B.S. It's like a Kha'zix jump but little bit weaker. {{champion:29}} Hypercarry. His late game can be even stronger than Vayne's however his invisibility is not an issue like Vayne has. He can turn invisible only 1 time and if he kills enemy he can get a reset. His late game is too strong and could use some nerfs to his ult once he hits level 16. but if he doesn't position properly u can easily kill him unlike Vayne. {{champion:110}} Used to be a crit adc but now he's kog'maw lol. He has really good ult and big q with good range but his not broken or anything, but I miss the old crit varus. {{champion:67}} Finally we got her. So her q is a dash. her w is really strong true damage ability with rageblade it's too strong and riot should do something about it. her e is alistar's w but with a stun if u hit the wall. as an ability it's not broken but for vayne it's more than enough to secure a kill. it even works with her w which is B.S. and finally her ult. Her ult is fine but once she goes invisible her entire gameplay is broken. Invisibility in league is very strong because not every ward can save u from it. And adc with kha'zix ult is just broken. Get this her kit is not broken but just invisibility makes her kit instantly broken because invisibility assits vayne too much and she can make a lot of mistakes and still kill everyone. {{champion:498}} She has really good aot damage really good ult against assassins and engage champs like {{champion:54}} , but she's not broken or anything. maybe her stun can be b.s. sometimes. but overall she's in ok spot although she feels very weak. > That small dash and single target knockback really isnt much is it? nope, it's ok, but when u have invisibility then it becomes too much. I already explained why it's broken so I won't repeat it myself. > Her q is predictable if you can think fast as it always goes a set distance. Fire a stun to where she is gonna land and she dies, stay away from walls and she cant stun you back. well she can use her q in 360 degrees meaning it's not that ez to predict where she's dashing not mentioning her ability to turn invisible. About the wall well yeah sherlock, but sometimes u're put in a position where she's gonna stun u. > Coming from a 70k vayne main, she needs her invisibility. No she really doesn't need invisibility. I have like 30k on her and I already can tell she doesn't need this.
: > she's not that short ranged lol. Like ivern is short ranged or urgot. She is for a hyper carry. Almost all hyper carries have a way of increasing their range, that way in a proper late game teamfight they get an advantage on positioning, they can stand further away from danger and therefore can’t get killed. Vayne has the second shortest attack range of all hyper carries late game (the next lowest after vayne is trist at 661, a full 111 units longer range). Only hypercarry with less range is kaisa who also get invisibility. The difference is that vayne has to be in ranged of most champions in order to deal damage, whereas other adcs can outrange most champions and therefore don’t have to worry about damage. > every adc is squishy > every adc needs strong defensive tool in order to survive... > every adc can die instantly without protection. Yes every adc does need some kind of defensive tool, especially the ones without long attack ranges. Her invisibility is her defensive tool... so you just proved my point here. > She has true damage which means just by being agresive she can't deffend herself from tanks. She doesn’t need to she easily out damages tanks, and fighters she can kite really easily. It’s other adcs, assasins and burst mages she can’t deal with, and her true damage does nothing against them (low resistance targets means that true damage doesn’t increase her damage by much) > Her invisibility is even more broken in comparison with kha'zix. if kha wants to be invisible he needs to ult 2 times and evolve his ult for the third time meawhile vayne just presses her q lol. She’s gotta press R as well. And to get multiple uses of her Q off she needs to be in attack range, meaning she’s a lot riskier. You are also comparing an assasin to an adc... one has to stay in the fight for a while dealing constant damage (adc), the other needs to get in deal damage then get back out... their ults are used very differently, vayne needs to use it more often because she needs to be in the fight for longer > As I said if u dont understand how the game should function don't speak. Maybe you should take your own advise then
> Almost all hyper carries have a way of increasing their range, that way in a proper late game teamfight they get an advantage on positioning, they can stand further away from danger and therefore can’t get killed. Vayne has the second shortest attack range of all hyper carries late game (the next lowest after vayne is trist at 661, a full 111 units longer range). Only hypercarry with less range is kaisa who also get invisibility. > The difference is that vayne has to be in ranged of most champions in order to deal damage, whereas other adcs can outrange most champions and therefore don’t have to worry about damage. Vayne does not have really short range well in comparison with other adc's yes it's short but nothing in comparison with every champ nope it's not that short and it's not even the problem for me her range is fine. Every adc must position correctly it's not only for hyper carries... Vayne has got aggressive kit, yet very safe one. Her q is perfect tool for repositioning u can use it both for creating shorter distance for ur enemies to kill and making larger distance to escape. not mentioning u can dodge skills with her q. Her q solves the problem with her range. and I have no problems with her q at all. The problem is that when she deals way too much damage having kinda mobile kit invisibility makes her too strong and too difficult too kill not mentioning that she can push enemies like Alistar with her e or even stun them. She simply does not need invisibility anymore. > Yes every adc does need some kind of defensive tool, especially the ones without long attack ranges. Her invisibility is her defensive tool... so you just proved my point here. No that's not my point at all, her q is defensive option without the invisibility to begin with, she also has not Alistar move but with stun if u manage to hit enemy in the wall. That's more than enough "short ranged" champion to deffend himself. So the invisibility part is completely irrelevant. > She doesn’t need to she easily out damages tanks, and fighters she can kite really easily. It’s other adcs, assasins and burst mages she can’t deal with, and her true damage does nothing against them (low resistance targets means that true damage doesn’t increase her damage by much) If a Vayne player knows what she's doing she can deal with burst mages. Like she can turn invisible the mage has to predict her position before she reveals herself making it complicated to kill her also she can push them away if she's not good enough or strong enough to deal with them. and it's even worse for melee assassin's like zed and talon. In late game being a burst mage/assassin does not mean anything to Vayne she can kill whatever she wants. Other Adc's does not have that mobility to kill vayne, she may lose early game but in late game no one can really kill her. Maybe someone like syndra and still vayne can dodge her abilities making it 50/50 to be killed by someone like syndra. > She’s gotta press R as well. And to get multiple uses of her Q off she needs to be in attack range, meaning she’s a lot riskier. nope, her invisibility makes it less risky. and it's not like she can use it 1 time she can use it at at least 3 times. > You are also comparing an assasin to an adc... one has to stay in the fight for a while dealing constant damage (adc), the other needs to get in deal damage then get back out... their ults are used very differently, vayne needs to use it more often because she needs to be in the fight for longer Dude im saying that she basically has the same ult as kha'zix but it makes her stronger because a ranged champion already has an advantage while being invisible against other opponent especially against melee opponent vayne is gonna win just because of her big damage and invisibility. That's why I'm comparing her to Kha'zix. Also fun fact with vayne there's no "constant damage" in late game she kills people she ain't adc anymore she's a monster lol especially a good vayne is basically god. Like when u play league try to turn on ur monitor it really does help. Please educate yourself on things like that it really hurts when people play only league and barely understand anything how game should function. U have this very narrow viewpoint about this topic.
Aezander (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Composure,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=nhKG3PL4,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-22T14:46:44.990+0000) > > she's not that short ranged lol. Like ivern is short ranged or urgot. > every adc is squishy > every adc needs strong defensive tool in order to survive... > every adc can die instantly without protection. > so what are u on about lol? > She has true damage which means just by being agresive she can't deffend herself from tanks. >** Her invisibility is even more broken in comparison with kha'zix. if kha wants to be invisible he needs to ult 2 times and evolve his ult for the third time meawhile vayne just presses her q lol. ** > As I said if u dont understand how the game should function don't speak. What are you **talking** about ? ... "Just presses her q" ? ... You do remember that her invisibility on the Tumble can only be used while her Ulti has been activated and is only for 1 second, right ?
> What are you talking about ? ... "Just presses her q" ? ... You do remember that her invisibility on the Tumble can only be used while her Ulti has been activated and is only for 1 second, right ? I forgot to type that she needs to press her q during her ult. it's more than enough for adc to reposition, because her tumble already moves her a lot and after tumble she can still move a little bit while being invisible so yeah great ability for a hypercarry! and she can use way more when just 1 time. she can use her ult+q at least 3 times that's the same as a Kha'zix lol. An adc with really big damage doesnt need invisibility and she loses the aspect of her being hard to master. because if u misstep or mess up it's possible to "outplay" ur opponents :D
: Because without the invisibility Vayne would become far too easy to catch, even with tumble and condemn Most ADC either have much stronger cc or much stronger mobilit Vayne has a balance of both. And what sort of Ultimate would give a bit of ad and a bit of CDR?
she has her q and e. what are u even talking about? as I said if u dont play anything else and dont understand how the game and and playable characters should function then dont speak at all. Easy to cath yea right, try turn on ur monitor when u play league :D She's one of the strongest if not the most strongest adc she doesn't need any invisibility. Her w is really strong no one can 1v1 her. Invisibility makes her way too dificult to deal with especially in late game. This is just toxic to the game. The invisibility removes everything that can be challenging to play vayne.
: I pity your friends....
that's really good argument lol :D are u vayne main? :D
M3GTRDragon (EUNE)
: get caught once=squashed. also red trinket exists, making it bit easier to hit with skillshots when she dumbles in the middle of teamfight.
if everyone gets caught they will die... red trinket won't do that much help it has this delay which is not that helpfull. and not always people have oracle lens :D or red trinked so yeah not very great option to deffend urself from squashy adc who can kill u and u cant do anything about it. once she hits late game it's over.
: She’s short ranged and very squishy... she needs a strong defensive tool in order to survive late game fights where she is meant to be strong. That’s what the invis is, to prevent her from dying instantly as soon as she gets into auto attack range
she's not that short ranged lol. Like ivern is short ranged or urgot. every adc is squishy every adc needs strong defensive tool in order to survive... every adc can die instantly without protection. so what are u on about lol? She has true damage which means just by being agresive she can't deffend herself from tanks. Her invisibility is even more broken in comparison with kha'zix. if kha wants to be invisible he needs to ult 2 times and evolve his ult for the third time meawhile vayne just presses her q lol. As I said if u dont understand how the game should function don't speak.
Rioter Comments
Terra (EUNE)
: that's the problem. they "leave" that to the system wich is forgiving one when it comes to toxic players and not only that. I wonder if they ever check report system themselves though. nope.
To be honest they could make a system like if u type something very offensive like the n-word the system should not allow u to send or show others that message to begin with. like other games does this. it won't solve the problem but still it's better that way. Especially in the game where u can turn off the language filter and 12 year olds can see all the beautiful words
: Hey mate, You need to be at least Honor Level 2 in order to be eligible to play Clash. You are, so you will be able to play. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}} You can read more about Clash [here](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000951548-Clash-FAQ) btw. Good luck!
Thx for clearing that out
Hecate (EUW)
: Is this being toxic ? How do I deal with it ?
It's not really big toxicity or negativity lol. Ofc it ain't good. But trust me real toxicity is much deeper than that. It's almost hilarious tbh.
Rioter Comments
: Mute negative players.
Thx captain sherlock, I'll keep that in mind. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} Honestly it's obvious thing to do yet some people can't do simple tasks like pressing tab/o and just muting someone lol.
Composure (EUNE)
: >"That is their decision. It is possible for EVERYONE. People just choose not to do it. Also, many low elo players tend to think off meta means anything that isn't meta, which isn't true. Picks like teemo mid are off meta. Picks like full ap vayne are troll picks, not off meta picks." Well Talking about off meta picks that's true. For example full ap {{champion:238}} is just troll. But if someone tries to go bruiser/tank {{champion:238}} that's off meta. Whatever if it's viable or not it depends on a player. League encourages their players to play meta even if they favour different playstyles. For example {{champion:62}} used to be a top lane pick (well I still play him top and others as well), but now he's pushed to the jungle, u can check in the game champion select if u want to. When u choose a champion {{champion:62}} top is no longer there. To me that's an issue caused by meta. it's like players DICTATE to the game developer how something should be played. And as I said before a good game must teach the player how to play the game and it's not the players job to balance the game for the developer. >It NEVER favored innovation like you claim. I already told you in my previous comment that the items were more bland. They only gave stats and nothing else. There was no innovation there but pure math about which items give the most benefit. If you went out of those builds, it was basically trolling. Not "innovation". Currently, there is a lot more room for that so called innovation thanks to items being more diverse. Idk how to say this, but back then items had tons of pasive effects. Also did u know that having an active effect doesn't necessarily mean innovation (if that's what u mean by diversity), have u ever thought about this? With old items Alistar jungle was a thing, but now because the meta and player base stopped playing him jungle, Alistar was pushed to a support role. I will repeat that one sentence u probably tired of hearing. "A good game should teach you how to play it and it's not the players job to balance the game for the developer." sorry I just really like this sentence and I stand by that statement wholeheartedly. I've a got a question for you if there is more room for players to be more innovative than before then why we don't really see this actually happening more than before? The game favoured innovations :D withing strategies. >No, it wasn't different. Yes, it was different, more than u think. >Playing and knowing what is meta is skill in itself. You might not value it but that's how it is. Kbowing what is strong and being able to play it is what makes you a good player. Especially since meta does constantly change and so do the champions, essentially forcing you to play many different champions, which takes more skill than playing just one champion. To be honest that's great argument because most of the times mastering meta is rewarding and can be considered skill, and that's a fact whatever I like it or not. But my argument to this would be that good player can be strategic and very skilled regardless if he's meta slave or not. Without the meta half of these proclaimed good players would be shit tier players. Do u remember Ardent Censer (cancer) meta? Tons of people suddenly climbed from silver to plat or even diamond just by buying {{item:3504}} and playing {{champion:40}}. But once that ridiculous meta was nerfed tons of those people got demoted back to gold or silver. Being a meta slave is a bad thing imo. It's like a fiction character who truly believes he's special, not because he's skilled or anything but because he's got powerful abilities, but once he loses his powerful abilities he just realizes how shitty he actually he is (U can think of mob spycho if u have seen an anime). Just like player without his meta he's meaningless and hey if he's truly able to master various meta's then he shouldn't be having hard time winning games in league without meta. Meta is like dictating the game developers how game can be played, and once again (xD) "A good game should teach you how to play it and it's not the players job to balance the game for the developer." >Except none of those were viable. You just think they were viable because your opponents had no skill what so ever back then so they couldn't punish you for poor item choices. They were viable some players reached diamond. Like you can look up this stuff. there are tons of people who reached diamond by playing alistar jungle, or taric top (the old taric). As for me I haven't been playing to much games of league back then lol. I took the game for fun so I wasn't a competitive player back then I was still learning the game with my terrible pc ( i used to play with 15 fps). Also as I said there were streamers, so ppl if they were serious enough they could hit high elo. >And this is your problem isn't it? You can't accept the fact that proper builds and tactics have always existed. You simply don't want people to use them. You want them to do wacky stuff simply because you want it. It was never a viable option to do that. Not ever. If u payed attention to what I'm saying, my point is I don't like that people only play meta stuff. But I haven't said that everyone must do wacky stuff. But I would like that league would give more room for innovation like back then. because that way there would be more strategies and more diversity to the gameplay a good game developer should understand this. The meta can stay the same as it's now, but it wouldn't hurt to give other players something to experiment with. >First of all, C9 still played the same picks as other teams. Secondly, they weren't playing with their own tactic. They used vitality's tactic of over-aggression, which happened to work because koreans had been too used to playing slow and "perfect" game, which made them vulnerable. There is still a correct way of playing the game and if a team can master that, there is no other viable tactic that could beat them. The games is, in it's core, just math and logic. Has always been and always will be. Not to mention C9 was a bad team overall. I haven't watched worlds that much. But it doesn't really matter, what I'm saying it was possible to play not just copying koreans all the time. Whatever C9 is good team or not, well that's not my point, but how they managed to eliminate korean team was my point :D >The games is, in it's core, just math and logic. No it's not. and it's very obvious to everyone who is playing it. there are things beyond math and logic for example SKILL, REFLEXES? they do play part in this. if u have great strategy that's great u're likely to win games but if u got skills u might win even more games. like even pro player doublelift said league is about skill. >At it's core, league is, and always has been, a strategy game. That has never changed. League is like a more complex version of chess. True, but it's not only chess it's much more than that. it's not only just complexity. >I know extremely well what things are important, thank you. I doubt that. you know what's important only for league but that's about it. >Low elo players wouldn't be low elo players if they actually understood what they are watching. They can see that kills are happening or that rotations are happening but they do not understand the reasoning and thought processes behind those decisions or their importance. It's not controversial, it's a fact. That's poor statement, definitely not a fact. Low elo players mostly don't take the game seriously enough (not all of them but there's huge portion of them). Since silver is average skill of the game. I can already see an argument saying that silver is low, but don't speak u don't understand how game is functioning outside gameplay. Since silver has the biggest percent player base it automatically makes this elo average skill elo, because that's where most people are playing in. And most of the people have school and don't have that much time to play league, they need more time to develop better skills especially if these players are studying really well to go to college or university so they play even less league. Then there is people who have to work, there are other people with bad internet connections or pc's like I was back then not mentioning school. So U don't really try to explore the reasons why they're low elo. Let me tell u this without a reasonable argument a fact can be considered false. U have to explore deeper to understand something. Just because someone is in low elo doesn't necessarily mean they are bad players and they don't understand anything about the game. I remember once I got better internet connection and better pc (right now I play with 120 fps and I can go with 200+ but for league it's enough to have 100 I even consider to lower it down for 60fps.) I instantly get to gold from silver, and I reached plat next season. Just because I had proper pc lol :DDD >There isn't a single competitive multiplayer game that teaches you how to play it properly. You could even consider it an intentional design choice. It's a part of the thrill to learn those things yourself and that is also what separates good players from bad ones. All in all, it all comes down to logic. Just like the csing thing i talked about earlier. League doesn't really have a great tutorial teaching players how to play games. For example RPG games have great tutorials they tell a lot of things that exists beyond gameplay. League teaches u how to buy items and how to kill someone and push the lanes. But there could be more things considered like telling the info when to roam to lanes how to make pressure and all other stuff. Although rpg tutorials can be way too long :D So finally I'm done My last sentence will be, u guessed it ritght (I think :D) "A good game should teach you how to play it and it's not the players job to balance the game for the developer." It's fun discussing with u, but I'm kinda don't want to write an essay, I hope u made through all of this, it might be even bigger wall of text than previously. I probably didn't answer something but I'm out of space as well, also i got to edit this cos grammar and stuff.
Btw Wukong is back in top. I noticed it yesterday lol, maybe there's a hope for this game
: >Firstly because it's possible to reach something with different playstyle and builds only for very small group of people because most of the people will go with the easy way out (playing meta stuff). That is their decision. It is possible for EVERYONE. People just choose not to do it. Also, many low elo players tend to think off meta means anything that isn't meta, which isn't true. Picks like teemo mid are off meta. Picks like full ap vayne are troll picks, not off meta picks. >But most of the time tons of ppl can't really do it because off meta builds are mostly weaker compared to meta builds, and that's the issue with the game who originally favoured innovation and unique strategies and I think it still does favour those things but riot kinda sucks at it. It NEVER favored innovation like you claim. I already told you in my previous comment that the items were more bland. They only gave stats and nothing else. There was no innovation there but pure math about which items give the most benefit. If you went out of those builds, it was basically trolling. Not "innovation". Currently, there is a lot more room for that so called innovation thanks to items being more diverse. >That's true compared to todays high elo. but the game itself was different from now. No, it wasn't different. > meanwhile with changes ppl figured how to play with meta but not with actual skill of mastering champion, or making something unique. Playing and knowing what is meta is skill in itself. You might not value it but that's how it is. Kbowing what is strong and being able to play it is what makes you a good player. Especially since meta does constantly change and so do the champions, essentially forcing you to play many different champions, which takes more skill than playing just one champion. People play what is meta because it gives them a competitive edge. It generally means a higher chance of winning and people do that all the time in every sport and competition. >So it's not that they learned how to get better at the game they just abused some reworks that made out to be too strong in live servers until they were nerfed. I can't hardly call this learning how to play the game. They simply learned how to play champions that are strong. Just like meta picks in general. Nothing wrong with that and again, it does take skill to play many different champions properly. >Another thing is Korea, Koreans were both really good with game and skilled to the point that everyone copied them, meaning league players kinda learned how to play korean style and not their own. But thx god ppl stopped following Koreans so much and they kinda started using their own strategies like cloud9 eliminating korean team in worlds. There is still hope for something like that, I believe it's still possible to see how league was meant to be played. First of all, C9 still played the same picks as other teams. Secondly, they weren't playing with their own tactic. They used vitality's tactic of over-aggression, which happened to work because koreans had been too used to playing slow and "perfect" game, which made them vulnerable. There is still a correct way of playing the game and if a team can master that, there is no other viable tactic that could beat them. The games is, in it's core, just math and logic. Has always been and always will be. Not to mention C9 was a bad team overall. >U would be right if that's how the game was meant to be played. That IS how it is meant to be played. You can't just go around saying how league is supposed to be played in your own opinion. I mean, you can but you must make it clear that it is just an opinion. The way i said it is supposed to be played is a fact, while yours is an opinion. A world of difference there. >But understanding the game like macro or anything else related to ur knowledge is just pointless (well not literally). Every other game requires to understand the game u play and when to rotate. I can't blame u for thinking that way because league community in general are really terrible when it comes to this. At it's core, league is, and always has been, a strategy game. That has never changed. League is like a more complex version of chess. >U understand only league but not how games should interact with player, League is very terrible at teaching players how to play it, but at the same time people can learn the game by themselves and be unique. Considering that i have studied game technology for 4 years, i'd say i do understand how games should interact with the player. League is pretty bad at teaching the players, that is true. However, it's mostly because the game is so complex and has so many different aspects to it that it's simply better to let the player learn himself. Let's use chess as an example again. It tells you the rules and how each piece can move. That's it. It's up to the player to figure out the rest. It's the exact same thing with league. The game tells you the rules and what everything does. Then it's up to the player to figure out the best way of using the tools he was given. That's how it should be. Not to mention if you are looking for a bit more advanced information or advice, all the information is out there. In the first seasons, there was no information yet and that is why it felt like everything goes, when in reality, you just lacked the knowledge. >And League was different with unique playstyles that worked for tons of people. No it wasn't. If you actually want different builds and play styles, dota 2 is the game for that. It was NEVER league's niche. All mobas are the same in their core. The other design choices are what make them look different. League's niche was that it was simple, satisfying, flashy and has a high skill expression. Skill expression is actually one of the major things that affect popularity. It's actually funny that you said league doesn't explain itself well. While that's true, it still explains itself much better than any other moba. >That's the thing League players should be aware of, like "how I am going to surprise my opponents" and not how to farm, roam, or any other of this shit. That's why League lost it's charm and become another generic moba out there. League didn't become that. League always was that. It's the players that took their time learning and accepting that fact. This is you trying to force the game to change to fit your views. Csing etc are the basic fundamentals of the game that you must be aware of before anything else. Regardless of your build, how are you going to get items? With gold. How do you get gold reliably every game? from minions. Thus, csing becomes the most important thing you ever have to do in this game. It was always like that and it will always remain like that. >About Items back then we had those idk how to call it, well let's say we had those wacky item choices and weird combinations. Except none of those were viable. You just think they were viable because your opponents had no skill what so ever back then so they couldn't punish you for poor item choices. >For example if a mage buys {{item:3285}} he might as well get {{item:3157}} and {{item:3089}} . That's the issue with items right now, combinations like that directly makes each item to assist one another. Not any more than back then. It was exactly the same back then. Nothing has changed here. >For example u could go with {{item:3128}} then {{item:3512}} . it's not optimal to buy items like this right now, but back then people would come up with interesting choices that actually worked out really well for them, right now it's rare occasion. It was NEVER optimal to buy items like that together. Never. Also, as you said, the example is very poor because those 2 items only existed at the same time for 1 patch so it's not like people actually built those items together. in season 3 and after it, the game was pretty much figured out already and the patch those 2 items existed together was in season 5. Those wacky builds were never a real thing. I mean, i remember building hextech gunblade on anivia in season 1 before level 30 every game but does that mean you could actually do that? No. It wasn't a viable option. I was just bad. That is all. >Your mentioned marksmans can build other items other than crit, but it's not my point, mostly adc's go crit but not all of them because by meta some adc's are better without crit items, and people play them that way not because it's unique but because it's better to go those builds than crit for certain adc's. You're right about diversity, that way diversity does exist, but it's nowhere close enough to the good old league days. And this is your problem isn't it? You can't accept the fact that proper builds and tactics have always existed. You simply don't want people to use them. You want them to do wacky stuff simply because you want it. It was never a viable option to do that. Not ever. > I highly doubt u understand what important things are in games, and what's most important in games like league. I know extremely well what things are important, thank you. > Besides it's not like low elo players can't know real league though watching streamers and worlds or other high elo stuff, most of the time streamers helps to get better for low elo players. So to say that low elo players does not really understand how game should be played is controversial. Low elo players wouldn't be low elo players if they actually understood what they are watching. They can see that kills are happening or that rotations are happening but they do not understand the reasoning and thought processes behind those decisions or their importance. It's not controversial, it's a fact. >But that's the fault of game developers, because as I said earlier the game doesn't teach u how u should be playing it. There isn't a single competitive multiplayer game that teaches you how to play it properly. You could even consider it an intentional design choice. It's a part of the thrill to learn those things yourself and that is also what separates good players from bad ones. All in all, it all comes down to logic. Just like the csing thing i talked about earlier. Outofspace
>"That is their decision. It is possible for EVERYONE. People just choose not to do it. Also, many low elo players tend to think off meta means anything that isn't meta, which isn't true. Picks like teemo mid are off meta. Picks like full ap vayne are troll picks, not off meta picks." Well Talking about off meta picks that's true. For example full ap {{champion:238}} is just troll. But if someone tries to go bruiser/tank {{champion:238}} that's off meta. Whatever if it's viable or not it depends on a player. League encourages their players to play meta even if they favour different playstyles. For example {{champion:62}} used to be a top lane pick (well I still play him top and others as well), but now he's pushed to the jungle, u can check in the game champion select if u want to. When u choose a champion {{champion:62}} top is no longer there. To me that's an issue caused by meta. it's like players DICTATE to the game developer how something should be played. And as I said before a good game must teach the player how to play the game and it's not the players job to balance the game for the developer. >It NEVER favored innovation like you claim. I already told you in my previous comment that the items were more bland. They only gave stats and nothing else. There was no innovation there but pure math about which items give the most benefit. If you went out of those builds, it was basically trolling. Not "innovation". Currently, there is a lot more room for that so called innovation thanks to items being more diverse. Idk how to say this, but back then items had tons of pasive effects. Also did u know that having an active effect doesn't necessarily mean innovation (if that's what u mean by diversity), have u ever thought about this? With old items Alistar jungle was a thing, but now because the meta and player base stopped playing him jungle, Alistar was pushed to a support role. I will repeat that one sentence u probably tired of hearing. "A good game should teach you how to play it and it's not the players job to balance the game for the developer." sorry I just really like this sentence and I stand by that statement wholeheartedly. I've a got a question for you if there is more room for players to be more innovative than before then why we don't really see this actually happening more than before? The game favoured innovations :D withing strategies. >No, it wasn't different. Yes, it was different, more than u think. >Playing and knowing what is meta is skill in itself. You might not value it but that's how it is. Kbowing what is strong and being able to play it is what makes you a good player. Especially since meta does constantly change and so do the champions, essentially forcing you to play many different champions, which takes more skill than playing just one champion. To be honest that's great argument because most of the times mastering meta is rewarding and can be considered skill, and that's a fact whatever I like it or not. But my argument to this would be that good player can be strategic and very skilled regardless if he's meta slave or not. Without the meta half of these proclaimed good players would be shit tier players. Do u remember Ardent Censer (cancer) meta? Tons of people suddenly climbed from silver to plat or even diamond just by buying {{item:3504}} and playing {{champion:40}}. But once that ridiculous meta was nerfed tons of those people got demoted back to gold or silver. Being a meta slave is a bad thing imo. It's like a fiction character who truly believes he's special, not because he's skilled or anything but because he's got powerful abilities, but once he loses his powerful abilities he just realizes how shitty he actually he is (U can think of mob spycho if u have seen an anime). Just like player without his meta he's meaningless and hey if he's truly able to master various meta's then he shouldn't be having hard time winning games in league without meta. Meta is like dictating the game developers how game can be played, and once again (xD) "A good game should teach you how to play it and it's not the players job to balance the game for the developer." >Except none of those were viable. You just think they were viable because your opponents had no skill what so ever back then so they couldn't punish you for poor item choices. They were viable some players reached diamond. Like you can look up this stuff. there are tons of people who reached diamond by playing alistar jungle, or taric top (the old taric). As for me I haven't been playing to much games of league back then lol. I took the game for fun so I wasn't a competitive player back then I was still learning the game with my terrible pc ( i used to play with 15 fps). Also as I said there were streamers, so ppl if they were serious enough they could hit high elo. >And this is your problem isn't it? You can't accept the fact that proper builds and tactics have always existed. You simply don't want people to use them. You want them to do wacky stuff simply because you want it. It was never a viable option to do that. Not ever. If u payed attention to what I'm saying, my point is I don't like that people only play meta stuff. But I haven't said that everyone must do wacky stuff. But I would like that league would give more room for innovation like back then. because that way there would be more strategies and more diversity to the gameplay a good game developer should understand this. The meta can stay the same as it's now, but it wouldn't hurt to give other players something to experiment with. >First of all, C9 still played the same picks as other teams. Secondly, they weren't playing with their own tactic. They used vitality's tactic of over-aggression, which happened to work because koreans had been too used to playing slow and "perfect" game, which made them vulnerable. There is still a correct way of playing the game and if a team can master that, there is no other viable tactic that could beat them. The games is, in it's core, just math and logic. Has always been and always will be. Not to mention C9 was a bad team overall. I haven't watched worlds that much. But it doesn't really matter, what I'm saying it was possible to play not just copying koreans all the time. Whatever C9 is good team or not, well that's not my point, but how they managed to eliminate korean team was my point :D >The games is, in it's core, just math and logic. No it's not. and it's very obvious to everyone who is playing it. there are things beyond math and logic for example SKILL, REFLEXES? they do play part in this. if u have great strategy that's great u're likely to win games but if u got skills u might win even more games. like even pro player doublelift said league is about skill. >At it's core, league is, and always has been, a strategy game. That has never changed. League is like a more complex version of chess. True, but it's not only chess it's much more than that. it's not only just complexity. >I know extremely well what things are important, thank you. I doubt that. you know what's important only for league but that's about it. >Low elo players wouldn't be low elo players if they actually understood what they are watching. They can see that kills are happening or that rotations are happening but they do not understand the reasoning and thought processes behind those decisions or their importance. It's not controversial, it's a fact. That's poor statement, definitely not a fact. Low elo players mostly don't take the game seriously enough (not all of them but there's huge portion of them). Since silver is average skill of the game. I can already see an argument saying that silver is low, but don't speak u don't understand how game is functioning outside gameplay. Since silver has the biggest percent player base it automatically makes this elo average skill elo, because that's where most people are playing in. And most of the people have school and don't have that much time to play league, they need more time to develop better skills especially if these players are studying really well to go to college or university so they play even less league. Then there is people who have to work, there are other people with bad internet connections or pc's like I was back then not mentioning school. So U don't really try to explore the reasons why they're low elo. Let me tell u this without a reasonable argument a fact can be considered false. U have to explore deeper to understand something. Just because someone is in low elo doesn't necessarily mean they are bad players and they don't understand anything about the game. I remember once I got better internet connection and better pc (right now I play with 120 fps and I can go with 200+ but for league it's enough to have 100 I even consider to lower it down for 60fps.) I instantly get to gold from silver, and I reached plat next season. Just because I had proper pc lol :DDD >There isn't a single competitive multiplayer game that teaches you how to play it properly. You could even consider it an intentional design choice. It's a part of the thrill to learn those things yourself and that is also what separates good players from bad ones. All in all, it all comes down to logic. Just like the csing thing i talked about earlier. League doesn't really have a great tutorial teaching players how to play games. For example RPG games have great tutorials they tell a lot of things that exists beyond gameplay. League teaches u how to buy items and how to kill someone and push the lanes. But there could be more things considered like telling the info when to roam to lanes how to make pressure and all other stuff. Although rpg tutorials can be way too long :D So finally I'm done My last sentence will be, u guessed it ritght (I think :D) "A good game should teach you how to play it and it's not the players job to balance the game for the developer." It's fun discussing with u, but I'm kinda don't want to write an essay, I hope u made through all of this, it might be even bigger wall of text than previously. I probably didn't answer something but I'm out of space as well, also i got to edit this cos grammar and stuff.
: whom are you kidding. season 3 was the worst season of them all. You're just nostalgic, so you remember the good bits, not the bad ones.
I'm pretty sure tons of people consider season 3 to be the best season. In my opinion season 5 or 6 was the worst of them all with tank meta. This was the cancer of league.
M3GTRDragon (EUNE)
: both right and wrong. When the game evolves, it's not dieing, it's evolving. Part of the essence gets removed to replace with a better, healthier part of the essence. What is dead, however, is the matchmaking. It's just so imbalanced that it's either a stomp or get stomped. And thats why the game feels dead: cause imbalanced matchmaking happens usually in multiplayer games where there are not enough people around
I would say that changes they make are very little bit too much and way too many. If league was still a Beta game I would not mind. Because right now as a finished game league is getting a lot of drastic updates that changes game in a different way. That's why I claim league to be dead due to changes.
AkashiGami (EUNE)
: I started playing season 5, and I still play 4 years and the only thing I can say is Seasons 6 7 8 9 pale in comparrison to season 5, Of course Riot did some good changes to the game but let's agree on one thing. The new client Zoe Neeko Pyke Release Old Stormrazor and Duskblade Aatrox and Irelia Rework The new everything damage runes as well are overall things I find to be killing the fun in game and some of the changes like the Aatrox one were forced and didn't do good(Let's not even talk about his new and old voice...)
Aatrox rework is the worst of all. They literally killed the original aatrox. In my opinion u should not go higher with a rework than ww/irelia rework.
: Calling league dead is a bit of a over statement. I would phrase it as it’s on life support. The only reason why many people still play is because the base game is just good. However, riot made bad decisions in almost every way possible. Made worse by the fact that the they say contradicting statements (such as forcing players to play a champion certain way for it to be viable but claiming to encourage players to try different builds, or frustrating most of the community to bring back a forgotten champ yet ignoring other forgotten champs, or rewarding players who are worse with catch up xp, bounty system and expect that this system won’t affect mmr) It’s because of these reasons, more and more players are just choosing to play other games and there is nothing stoping them. Since riot has done an excellent job at ruining the game so far I am pretty sure more and more players are losing hope. If they don’t take some initiative actions and let the community have some influence on the direction of the game. I can imagine league getting unplugged from life support and die in the near future.
Completely agreed about forcing champion in other roles even if they're meant to be played somewhere else. Also Riot is communicating a lot with community. They do care but their solutions is not good enough. There are probably other reasons for them to mess up. But we all know that they're trying.
Kha Trix (EUW)
: I think that, from where it stands, your point of view is correct. However, in a more universal standing, it's not League that died, it was your enthusiasm for it, or simply said, "Your League". I began playing in season 6, and went off as a hard Teemo main. That champion was my love, and the climb from level 17 to 30 was amazing and fun (I took my cousin's smurf account for myself). Some things were hard, some were easy, and I just built whatever was in the recommended item set. In those levels, you'd take the "Hmm, I'm dying too quick. Better build AP to kill him quicker" way of thinking. However, as I progressed, that thought changed. I got jungle by accident, and wanted to take Teemo, but my cousin managed to trick me into picking old Warwick. I wanted to dodge, but he said "Dude, just try him". And I did. It was super fun as well. By the end of season 6, I tried maining Rengar. He had his problems, and I sucked at him at first, but eventually I began to evolve and became a whole lot better at him. Then he got reworked. Then he got nerfed. Then he got nerfed again. So I turned to Kha'Zix. By my summoner's name, you can guess how that worked out. I still love the game, but if you ask me if it is the same as back in season 6, it is not. I don't feel the same excitement. Back then I used to think "Oh boy, a league game!". Now I think "Imma have fun shredding someone". The goals had changed hard. However, League never died for me. It just grew up, same as me. I'm not such a hard Teemo main anymore, ever since I got him to M7, and same goes a bit for Kha'Zix. Like many, I start playing other champions, in order to bring variety to the gameplay. However, I don't like 70% of the champs for each role, therefore my selection is narrow. Yet I still play it. Why? Because my enthusiasm for the unknown of the game never died. It merely assumed different forms. There may have been times where it faced crisis, but it always stood back up. I also hate some of the meta, like I hate how Master Yi/Jinx just need items to do whatever they want with the game. I still hate playing agaisnt some champs. And I also hate losing to players who are better than me, or that got babysit and brag it off like they're super solo good. Basically, your enthusiasm works like when you were a kid: You used to love toy cars, but now you don't play them anymore. Why? Because it never evolved nor did it grow up with you. Yeah, change is a shock, but it is also thanks to it that the game didn't get outdated/boring. In my opinion, most of the people that complain about changes are those that hate to step out of their safe spot, and want things to remain as they are. For me, changes open up options. I would never even think of trying out Galio had he not been reworked. Kayle used to be shit until they decided to rework it. Morgana seemed super boring in terms of looks, until they reworked that. All of these ignite my enthusiasm, and some of them kill them. Like when Kha'Zix's R evolution got changed. In a way, I'm sad I can't roam like a god through the map, but on the other hand, people started thinking he wasn't as good, and stopped playing him for a bit, making it less likely that they banned him. To me, this change also worked as "Requires more skill now" update. Overall, I'd say that your enthusiasm for league decreased exponencially when compared to when you began playing this game, to the point where "Your League" died. However, it still breathes inside many other players. Because it's not just the changes that kill/keep it alive. It's our viewpoint on it. Hopefully I managed to change your mind. P.S.: Lmao, comment bigger than the post.
Surprisingly I agree with most of ur arguments here. But my enthusiasm for league is not dead, I still take the game seriously. only for the last couple of month i started to play less ranked games, because im college student studying law and I wanted to finally finish other games :D. I still wanna get diamond in league, with my mains ahri, yas, kled, Irelia, (the new Irelia is better), ezreal, syndra, Wukong. I love all of these champs. So I actually talked about game changes how it's a bad thing in another comment that is longer than yours so if u want it u can find it it's easily the longest comment here :D with my name :D. I just dont want to write another essay here :D. Well I still think that league is dead. or at least if I will change my view league as a game is not finished developing, those changes are way too much for a completed game. P.S. I made even bigger comment so we are gucci :D
: > I play this game since 2012 so I know what I'm talking about. Obviously you do not know what you are talking about. It doesn't really matter when you started if you do not understand the game. As an example, i have played since season 1 and i pretty much fully disagree with you. >U can't climb with everything u want. Back then it was possible. You can definitely still climb with everything. Like the other person said, it comes down to your skill to pull it off. As an example, I have consistently climbed to diamond with teemo mid and teemo top with different play styles. I dare to say teemo mid is pretty off meta and unique since even riot's own stats tab in the client can't compare me with other diamond mid teemos because there aren't enough people playing it on that level. >The reasons are the game itself was different and itemization was different and made possible to achieve those unique play styles. The reason why there were many different new play styles etc was because the game wasn't figured out yet. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game or items. It was pure lack of knowledge and understanding. The game was the same as it is now and the items haven't changed fundamentally. It would be different if there were more active items back then than there are now but there are more active items now than there was before, which opens up more possibilities. Back then, they were only stats and that means less variety because you will always pick the item that gives the most stats. If you look at the professional matches from early seasons, the mechanics and the game knowledge of the players was extremely bad on today's standards. The game hasn't changed, the players have. As players improve, the game becomes more compact and predictable. >Right now items are made to buy in synchronization if that makes sense :D. It doesn't. It's not any different from before. >But for example if u play adc u go ie then statikk stiv and rapid fire canon/pd. Those items are made for adc. And items and builds like that have always existed. Again, not any different. > There are exceptions like ezreal. but he's like the only exception besides kai'sa. and mainly because of his kit. Champions that can build other stuff than the typical crit build {{champion:81}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:110}} And that's not including champions like graves and kindred that could be considered adcs even though they are not played in that role. That's half of the entire marksman pool. Diversity does exist. Now back to the first quotation. I do not mean this in a bad way, but you must understand that your level of play on the earlier seasons has been so low that you haven't actually ever been in touch with the REAL part of league of legends during those seasons. You have been playing on a level that doesn't have meta or skill. The real knowledge hadn't reached that level of play and thus you thought everything worked or "coming up with your own strategy" was something only those season had. Even now, there are players in the low elo experimenting and coming up with "new" builds and strategies but the truth is, someone has most likely already tried it out before or someone with actual skill could tell in an instant that it will not work against competent players. In conclusion, the game has seen many changes but not a single one of them has changed what the actual game is. And that means league's very essence hasn't changed.
Finally someone who's making great arguments. "You can definitely still climb with everything. Like the other person said, it comes down to your skill to pull it off..." I highly disagree about this statement. Firstly because it's possible to reach something with different playstyle and builds only for very small group of people because most of the people will go with the easy way out (playing meta stuff). But most of the time tons of ppl can't really do it because off meta builds are mostly weaker compared to meta builds, and that's the issue with the game who originally favoured innovation and unique strategies and I think it still does favour those things but riot kinda sucks at it. "The reason why there were many different new play styles etc was because the game wasn't figured out yet. " That's true compared to todays high elo. but the game itself was different from now. There were no big changes, meanwhile with changes ppl figured how to play with meta but not with actual skill of mastering champion, or making something unique. For example They reworked adc's and bruisers back in season 5 (I think it's season 5 not sure thou :D) and made them more powerful. So it's not that they learned how to get better at the game they just abused some reworks that made out to be too strong in live servers until they were nerfed. I can't hardly call this learning how to play the game. Another thing is Korea, Koreans were both really good with game and skilled to the point that everyone copied them, meaning league players kinda learned how to play korean style and not their own. But thx god ppl stopped following Koreans so much and they kinda started using their own strategies like cloud9 eliminating korean team in worlds. There is still hope for something like that, I believe it's still possible to see how league was meant to be played. "It has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game or items. It was pure lack of knowledge and understanding. The game was the same as it is now and the items haven't changed fundamentally." U would be right if that's how the game was meant to be played. But understanding the game like macro or anything else related to ur knowledge is just pointless (well not literally). Every other game requires to understand the game u play and when to rotate. I can't blame u for thinking that way because league community in general are really terrible when it comes to this. U understand only league but not how games should interact with player, League is very terrible at teaching players how to play it, but at the same time people can learn the game by themselves and be unique. League is not about macro or any other thing u must learn, because every other moba has those things. What's important for league is what it makes different from other games or to be more specific from other mobas. that's the most important thing why people even play this game to begin with. and that's the most important thing in any other game, because no one wants to learn the same things in the game they learned from other games. Those things like macro, freezing the wave etc. comes second for priority to learn not the first place. Games must be different from each other. And League was different with unique playstyles that worked for tons of people. That's the thing League players should be aware of, like "how I am going to surprise my opponents" and not how to farm, roam, or any other of this shit. That's why League lost it's charm and become another generic moba out there. About Items back then we had those idk how to call it, well let's say we had those wacky item choices and weird combinations. For example if a mage buys {{item:3285}} he might as well get {{item:3157}} and {{item:3089}}. That's the issue with items right now, combinations like that directly makes each item to assist one another. In old league it wasn't that much of a thing. For example u could go with {{item:3128}} then {{item:3512}} . it's not optimal to buy items like this right now, but back then people would come up with interesting choices that actually worked out really well for them, right now it's rare occasion. Well my example isn't that good but I think u get the idea. Your mentioned marksmans can build other items other than crit, but it's not my point, mostly adc's go crit but not all of them because by meta some adc's are better without crit items, and people play them that way not because it's unique but because it's better to go those builds than crit for certain adc's. You're right about diversity, that way diversity does exist, but it's nowhere close enough to the good old league days. "I do not mean this in a bad way, but you must understand that your level of play on the earlier seasons has been so low that you haven't actually ever been in touch with the REAL part of league of legends during those seasons" Once again I can't blame you for thinking like that because you have only knowledge of League and that's about it (well I assume xD). I highly doubt u understand what important things are in games, and what's most important in games like league. For example if there was another moba so much different from League ur knowledge would be meaningless because u understand how league can be played, but not how games should work. Well most league players play too much league and pay little attention to other games. and that's a shame because u can learn so much from different games. and have a better understanding of how good game should function. To be fair ur argument is decent, but it does not really match what I'm talking about. Besides it's not like low elo players can't know real league though watching streamers and worlds or other high elo stuff, most of the time streamers helps to get better for low elo players. So to say that low elo players does not really understand how game should be played is controversial. But that's the fault of game developers, because as I said earlier the game doesn't teach u how u should be playing it. and that's a bad thing. Because a good game should teach you how to play it and it's not the players (in this situation it's high elo streamers) job to balance the game for the developer or in other words it's not high elo players job to teach other players about the game in their streams. However as I said before League is very terrible at teaching players how to play it, but at the same time people can learn the game by themselves and be unique. I'm terribly sorry for typing so much xD I hope you made it though all of this :D
Smerk (EUW)
: I can't agree with that. First of all because you still can climb with anything you want. You just have to be good enough. And if you really that is what league was all about, then I don't even know what to say
U can't climb with everything u want. Back then it was possible. The reasons are the game itself was different and itemization was different and made possible to achieve those unique play styles. Right now items are made to buy in synchronization if that makes sense :D. It's hard to explain. But for example if u play adc u go ie then statikk stiv and rapid fire canon/pd. Those items are made for adc. There are exceptions like ezreal. but he's like the only exception besides kai'sa. and mainly because of his kit. I play this game since 2012 so I know what I'm talking about.
WarlockBN (EUNE)
: %%%% playing league there is no fun in the game if you play vs and with shity players who int . i am not someone who find it funy if i loss... this game is shity and no fun at all for solo gameplay why i payed $$$$ in it in the first place
I understand ur frustration. League is addictive game. I would suggest to delete this game and try playing and doing something. U just need to move on. Or just take a break.
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