Infernape (EUW)
: Still doesn't change the fact that it isn't essential and isn't an absolute _**need**_.
You know I'd forgotten how much fun it was to have someone not read things I've said _several times_ already > Not everything HAS to include LGBTQ+ characters, but everything CAN, and we should never be treated like this for asking for them. > "Why are you pushing for representation so hard?" > > A: The benefits of having LGTBQ+ representation in ANY game or medium are many and they affect both queer and non-queer people alike. If a gay character is included in a game played by people -especially young people like kids and teenagers- (cough LoL cough) then those people get to come in contact with queer characters. They get to learn that being Gay/Bi/Ace/Trans/Non-Binary is ok, it's not wrong and that -much like LITERALLY anyone else- these people need to be respected and not discriminated for who they are. Additionally, queer children/teenagers/adults get to understand that aspect of themselves much faster and don't end up with internalized queerphobia issues as they grow. This is just a simplified explanation but you get the gist. Feel free to use google for a more detailed explanation. Also I'd argue that, considering how there's literally zero LGBTQ+ characters in the game -thus rendering it a festering ground for queerphobia- LGBTQ+ representation is preeeetty essential at this point.
Darkdash (EUNE)
: How about we have some actual, canonical LGBTQ+ representation in this game?
To all those people in the comments arguing that LoL would "be banned" in countries if it included LGBTQ+ champions, or that it would "lose its pg13 rating" [Blizzard has confirmed that Tracer from Overwatch is Queer](http://www.polygon.com/2016/12/20/14028604/overwatch-gay-tracer) [ Overwatch officially reveals first LGBT character after saying there are ‘multiple’ in the game](https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/12/20/overwatch-officially-reveals-first-lgbt-character-after-saying-there-are-multiple-in-the-game/) I believe this is what you might call a "slam dunk" against bigoted arguments. Now all we need is for Riot to step up their Gayme.
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkdash,realm=EUNE,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=docGj6Ax,comment-id=0021000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-13T17:50:50.125+0000) > > _BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA_ > > WELL DONE EVERYONE! WE'VE FINALLY DONE IT! > > This, this is the *Ultimate* Red Herring to **ANY** discussion. I can't believe that this guy, this magnificent trolling fool just _blamed me for ISIS murdering people_ . I just, I can't stop laughing! > > This is the greatest day of my life, nowhere (and I mean **_nowhere_** ) have I had the immense joy and privilege of watching someone explain to me why racist (along with queerphobic, sexist and antisemitic) abuse and harassment is ok, because ** ISIS exists.** This is like the longest reach that ever reached, like, how long are your arms dude those things must be _slinkies_ by now. > > Oh and by the way > > [Muslims have suffered between 82 and 97% of Terrorism-Related Fatalities over the past 5 years](http://www.globalresearch.ca/muslims-are-the-victims-of-between-82-and-97-of-terrorism-related-fatalities-us-government/5516565) > > (Oh and Muslims can be LGBTQ+ too) > > [Twitter deletes 125,000 Isis accounts and expands anti-terror teams](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/05/twitter-deletes-isis-accounts-terrorism-online) > > [How exactly does Twitter take on Isis](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/how-exactly-does-twitter-take-on-isis-cyber-jihadists-a6857731.html) > > See, not only is this a Red Herring, it's also completely unfounded, nonsense trollop. > > Honestly I just love this comment, this comment gi**_VES ME LIFE_**. tHANk you soooo much for posting this to completely derail the conversation into the Wonderland of your choice, you have officially made my day. > > Now, if you don't mind, I'll just be over here -_pffffffff_- fighting **_ISIS_** until they stop **_murdering people_** because aPPARENTLY it's *my fault* they do that. Heh, I knew you'd reply like this, because you're as predictable as they come. I do not trust any news website/source that announced HIllary Clinton was going to win the elections, because they were lying and they knew it 100%. There's alot of false news being pushed nowadays anyway. So, there's that. But hey, if according to you, what i said is completely unfounded just because some news websites made an article about Twitter/ISIS and the other things you call "Red herrings", there truly is no value in any discussion with you. And i'm not accusing you of such horrible things, i'm merely holding up a mirror. Keep twisting words until they mean what you want them to mean though. I'm sure karma/God/another higher power has something in store for you that will make you regret or at least think twice before ever using the despicable ways and mannerisms you learned to make yourself look better while lies come out of you with every breath you take. Just like HIllary Clinton did when she was on her presidential campaign. At least now i know you are actually responsible for getting my posts removed, since you didn't adress that at all, that automatically means you are behind censoring what i said for whatever false reason you might have concocted in your brain. That shows me you are, in the end, not worth discussing with at all, ever again.
Oh well, I suppose this romance couldn't last forever. For anyone else wondering, the first article is based on reports and data provided by The U.S. National Counterterrorism Center and comments made by the State Department. The second article is published by The Guardian (a very credible and reliable news provider) with several links to other sources. The third article I cannot personally vouch for, but a cursory research suggests that it is credible enough (despite, unfortunately, not citing enough sources).
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkdash,realm=EUNE,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=docGj6Ax,comment-id=00240000,timestamp=2016-12-13T13:47:59.222+0000) > > One > > > (By the way if you don't think that LGTBQ+ representation is necessary then I'd invite you to scroll down and read some of the more ~colourful~ comments I received. Like the one where I was called a "special psychopath pedophile" or the one where I was told I "deserved conversion therapy") I know exactly the kind of comments this discussion would elicit and i'm not in the urge to read them. Nor i necessarily believe that people who hold dearly such view of the matter have any real chance to turn for the better. > > Two No, there are way worse things that NOT display LGBTQ+ content when it comes to define neutrality. > > Three > The removal of the cigar happened after the release of that cinematic. > Four You can have the idea you want about what concerns me and what not, that still does not prevent me in the slightest to write anything i see fit if i want.
> I know exactly the kind of comments this discussion would elicit and i'm not in the urge to read them. Yeah I agree, most of them are pretty terrible. > Nor i necessarily believe that people who hold dearly such view of the matter have any real chance to turn for the better. Oh gods no, bigots will be bigots I'm not doing this for *them* . I'm doing this for LGTBQ+ people across the world that feel confused and alone and also for non-queer people who can very easily not become queerphobes just by being shown actual queer characters in the media. Bigotry stems from ignorance and that's what queer representation works to combat, best case scenario for people who are already super prejudiced is that they no longer feel comfortable voicing their horrible bigotry and attacking queer people. > The removal of the cigar happened after the release of that cinematic. Oh god frickin damn it. Look, I've said this before and I'll say it again, _EVEN IF_ certain countries ask that those theoretical LGBTQ+ champions we're talking about are removed from their servers/localized versions of the game then that's _still _ not an actual reason to not try and include LGBTQ+ characters in the first place. Best case scenario is, we get some representation in the game. Worst case scenario is that nothing changes. And if no one really "cares" about this one way or another, then this is a win-win situation. > You can have the idea you want about what concerns me and what not, that still does not prevent me in the slightest to write anything i see fit if i want. Um that's not what those words meant. What I said was "If you don't *actually care* whether or not LoL get's representation, then you don't need to be a part of this discussion". This isn't me limiting your speech it's just me reminding you that if it truly doesn't matter to you then, well, you don't have to discuss this subject. Obviously I'd rather you did but you don't have to.
AstralDream (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=DemonikSoul,realm=EUNE,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=docGj6Ax,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2016-12-12T23:31:18.675+0000) > > do you know how many places and people dont view LGBTQ as normal or legal? There are places where beeing gay is a crime punished with death! And even in places where its considered normal its still super hard for young people to come out...having examples helps these kids and the people around them to axcept what they are easier > > probably but they do them for a reason! And the reason is for people to get use to LGBTQ and to start view these things as something ... well if not normal but at least not disgusting and punishable.. small steps Africa has some richest countries in the whole world and yet people are starving in Africa. Not everything will be perfect, in one place some things may be allowed in other not allowed. Its human nature at it finest. And no some people wont get used to the parades, and honestly the parades do more bad things than good.
> Not everything will be perfect, in one place some things may be allowed in other not allowed. > Its human nature at it finest. Yes but that doesn't mean we can't try to improve things. Sitting around doing nothing isn't going to make things better. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing > honestly the parades do more bad things than good. The parades exists to instill a sense of pride to LGBTQ+ people, to show them support, to eradicate the notion that LGBTQ+ people should be "ashamed" of who they are, while at the same time being a type of activism. They do not exist so that non-queer people magically stop being queerphobic by watching them. If you don't like the Pride parades then you can just walk away from one, no one's forcing you to watch them. Also Pride parades aren't the same everywhere, some are much smaller while others are much much bigger. They all -however- are held for the same purposes.
: As male who likes both boys and girls, i most definetely would not frown upon the game messing around with such topics. On the other hand, it's not really needed for the scope of LoL. I'm here mostly for the game and that's it, and i understand that RioT is enough concerned about her reputation to stay at least neutral in this regard (this is almost the same field they were in when the decided to remove Graves's cigar after all).
> On the other hand, it's not really needed for the scope of LoL One > Not everything HAS to include LGBTQ+ characters, but everything CAN, and we should never be treated like this for asking for them. > > League has an amazing opportunity to spread LGBTQ+ characters to a part of the population who are highly homophobic (statistically) by just including a single throwaway voiceline > "Why are you pushing for representation so hard?" > > A: The benefits of having LGTBQ+ representation in ANY game or medium are many and they affect both queer and non-queer people alike. If a gay character is included in a game played by people -especially young people like kids and teenagers- (cough LoL cough) then those people get to come in contact with queer characters. They get to learn that being Gay/Bi/Ace/Trans/Non-Binary is ok, it's not wrong and that -much like LITERALLY anyone else- these people need to be respected and not discriminated for who they are. Additionally, queer children/teenagers/adults get to understand that aspect of themselves much faster and don't end up with internalized queerphobia issues as they grow. This is just a simplified explanation but you get the gist. Feel free to use google for a more detailed explanation. (By the way if you don't think that LGTBQ+ representation is necessary then I'd invite you to scroll down and read some of the more ~colourful~ comments I received. Like the one where I was called a "special psychopath pedophile" or the one where I was told I "deserved conversion therapy") > and i understand that RioT is enough concerned about her reputation to stay at least neutral in this regard Two > There is no such thing as "being neutral". If you don't include queer characters in a game that already has so many, then that is not neutrality. Obviously Riot isn't planning on adding LGBTQ+ champions in their game any time soon, but that's all the more reason to reach out to them and let them know why such representation is needed. Three > in the "A new Dawn" cinematic, Grave's cigar can be seen bright, clear and as prominent as ever. > > If Riot can get away with giving Graves a cigar in an animation then they can get away with adding queer representation in one too. Four > "I don't care about gay characters I just want to play the game" > > A: Good, then this discussion neither impacts nor concerns you, have a nice day and please close the door on your way out.
: This topic is by far the most useless and OP proves he is the bigot himself, being unable to accept every logical comment made on this topic with OP's statement which now proves to simply boildown to: because LGBTQ MUST BE FEATURED IN LOL NO MATTER WHAT! And that IS inherently way more bigoted in and of itself. It strongly reminds me of a child having a temper tantrum after being told "no" a few times. You know, one of those that, during childhood, hasn't been taught it is nothing more special than the rest of us by being gay/pro-LGBTQ/not conforming to the "straight" and "normal" people norm. I have no grudges against any gay people what-so-ever, i just can't tolerate such childish, dumb and bigoted behavior because it is damaging and unhealthy to both straight and gay communities everywhere. It is bullying on the most simple of levels if you think about it. And i do NOT tolerate bullying, no matter who you are. Maybe posting a video link for one of the many interviews Milo Yiannopoulos has done will actually help consider the OP to have a good look n listen at the comments expressing themselves AGAINST his/her own idea: /watch?v=M0505RbdG5k
I've addressed this before but then a bunch of comments got deleted so let me briefly reiterate myself. Milo Yiannopoulos is a racist, white supremacist, antisemitic, sexist, queerphobic hate-spewing jerk. Twitter recently had to BAN him for his racist harassment and abuse towards_ Ghostbusters'_ Leslie Jones (and also for actively encouraging his supporters to send hate to Leslie).* *(he also tried to fake homophobic tweets by making it look like Leslie was tweeting bigotry) This is a leading figure in the neonazi "alt right" movement (a group of racist, white supremacist, antisemitic, sexist, queerphobic hate-spewing jerks) and therefore a neonazi himself. His hate speech of "curing homosexuality" has no place in this discussion and I'd thank you to never again taint this thread with his name.
: It would make sense, if this game had more story gameplay wise. I get it, that they put LGBTQIAP+ people on games like _Fallout_ or _Mass Effect_, where story clearly matters more (and I'm not against it by any means). I'm not saying that League has no story, all I'm asking is why? After we include gay character, next we need a trans one, an ace one, toaster-kin one, one muslim, jew, hindu etc., the list just goes on and on and on. Is it really necessary? Also, I think some countries might ban the game from having games (like Middle East or Russia).
Both of these arguments have already been addressed here > "Why are you pushing for representation so hard?" > > A: The benefits of having LGTBQ+ representation in ANY game or medium are many and they affect both queer and non-queer people alike. If a gay character is included in a game played by people -especially young people like kids and teenagers- (cough LoL cough) then those people get to come in contact with queer characters. They get to learn that being Gay/Bi/Ace/Trans/Non-Binary is ok, it's not wrong and that -much like LITERALLY anyone else- these people need to be respected and not discriminated for who they are. Additionally, queer children/teenagers/adults get to understand that aspect of themselves much faster and don't end up with internalized queerphobia issues as they grow. This is just a simplified explanation but you get the gist. Feel free to use google for a more detailed explanation. and [here](http://boards.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/off-topic-en/docGj6Ax-how-about-we-have-some-actual-canonical-lgbtq-representation-in-this-game?comment=001400000000000000000000) > After we include gay character, next we need a trans one, an ace one Yah that's kinda the point here. Actual canonical and fair representation for LGBTQ+ people. That's why I said that MANY queer characters need to be included in the game, not just one. Riot doesn't have to release them all at once, but they can sure as hell start working on making them. > one muslim, jew, hindu Religion and Queerness are two totally unrelated parts of a person's identity. This discussion isn't about religion. Obviously it would be amazing if the media would offer representation for those minorities too, but this is not what we're talking about. And to quote someone other than myself for once: > Not everything HAS to include LGBTQ+ characters, but everything CAN, and we should never be treated like this for asking for them.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: Those other games that include lgbt characters don't have pg13, they just lose nothing in adding them. League is different.
Transistor had LGBTQ+ characters and yet it didn't get an adult rating (T for teens) Magical Diary had LGBTQ+ characters and yet it didn't get an adult rating (E for everyone) Guild Wars 2 had LGBTQ+ characters and yet it didn't get an adult rating (T for teens) Moon Hunters has LGBTQ+ characters and yet it hasn't gotten an adult rating (E 10+ for everyone over the age of 10) The Legend of Korra (the game) had a Bisexual main character and yet it didn't get an adult rating (T for teens)* *(T for teens means "anyone of the ages 13 and up")* *(there was also a nintendo game that had an E+10 rating) The other games I mentioned don't have pg13 ratings because they also contain *actual* adult content such as gore, use of alcohol, sexual themes etc _**NOT **_ because they have LGBTQ+ characters. LoL won't lose its pg13 rating if Riot includes LGBTQ+ champions in the game. The pg13 rating is not a valid argument against the inclusion of LGBTQ+ characters.
: >Asking for good lore from Riot in 2016 El - oh - el.
: Look, sorry but the idea that games _need_ queer characters is complete BS. It's purely the developer's right to decide whether they want to include queer characters or not, not yours or anyone else's. If having queer characters is relevant to the gameplay or the storyline of a game, then sure why not? If not, then there is no reason to include them other than solely at the developer's discretion. LoL (or any game for that matter) has no obligation to represent LGBTQ+ or other minorities. I don't know why you feel the need to be represented by characters in a game in the first place. That just makes it seem to me like you're insecure about your sexuality. The mentality that others need to cater to _your_ needs based on your sexuality is only going to draw hostile attitudes, now and in the future. That's reality.
Another comment, another slew of arguments that have already been refuted. > "Why are you pushing for representation so hard?" > > A: The benefits of having LGTBQ+ representation in ANY game or medium are many and they affect both queer and non-queer people alike. If a gay character is included in a game played by people -especially young people like kids and teenagers- (cough LoL cough) then those people get to come in contact with queer characters. They get to learn that being Gay/Bi/Ace/Trans/Non-Binary is ok, it's not wrong and that -much like LITERALLY anyone else- these people need to be respected and not discriminated for who they are. Additionally, queer children/teenagers/adults get to understand that aspect of themselves much faster and don't end up with internalized queerphobia issues as they grow. This is just a simplified explanation but you get the gist. Feel free to use google for a more detailed explanation. If only people knew how to read the sentences written above before voicing their inner thoughts... > If having queer characters is relevant to the gameplay or the storyline of a game, then sure why not? Are you suggesting that Riot introduce a new enemy/champion that can only be defeated by the power of The Gay(TM)? LGBTQ+ representation is not put in games because there's a big boss fight at the end against a man allergic to different sexualities and gender identities than his own. Queer characters are written so that a) humanity can take one step closer to eradicating bigotry and b) so that LGBTQ+ people worldwide learn that their identities are valid and that they need to be respected just like any other human being. There have been several games (Dragon Age: Inquisiton, Mass Effect 3, Undertale, Transistor etc) that included queer characters. In none of those instances was there a particular "gameplay" or "storyline" reason for those characters to be queer. > The mentality that others need to cater to your needs based on your sexuality is only going to draw hostile attitudes, now and in the future. That's reality. This isn't taking care of "my needs" this is offering representation, visibility and legitimacy for millions of people worldwide. If I was a writer at a big gaming company (like Riot) with an extremely popular and successful game played by countless people across the globe (like LoL) then I would -in fact- offer that representation to the world by adding several LGBTQ+ characters to the game. But I'm not, so I can't do that. Also you're right in thinking that this discussion is attracting hostile trolls in the comments, but that's less to do with me and more to do with the glaring presence of bigots in the forum boards.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: >That's nothing, that's absolutely nothing. I specifically mentioned adding many MANY LBGTQ+ champions in the game so that a level of meaningful representation was achieved. 1 gay champion is not acceptable queer representation. By all means, No. I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 sexually ambiguous champions, that would be enough to give you that holy representation you brag much about, but "MANY"? Hell no, that's just attention seeking. 1-2% is the percentage of the lgbt population worldwide, more than 1-2% lgbt champions would be just attention seeking. You're fighting for virtual nonsense and you're also getting mad for it, nothing would change if a goddamn GAME had lgbt representation in it. If you really want representation you should seek it from your country's government and media, not in a game. I wonder how much lgbt representation there is in books or movies or tv series, go bother them.
> 1-2% is the percentage of the lgbt population worldwide Wow, just wow. You really have no clue about how the world actually is. [ 1 in 2 young people say they are not 100% heterosexual](https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/16/half-young-not-heterosexual/) > I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 sexually ambiguous champions, that would be enough to give you that holy representation you brag much about, but "MANY"? Hell no, that's just attention seeking. The whole "Attention seeking" argument is a tired one at best. If you think that "we want to be represented in the media and recognized as real and existent" means "we're seeking attention" then I don't know what to say to you. You're wrong? No wait that's too obvious. Also good to know that 1-2 "sexually ambiguous" (should I gloss over the fact that you can't even tolerate that the champions be officially gay/bi/ace/aro? No, no I shouldn't) characters is ok with you but hEAVEN FORFEND THAT 3 OR EVEN 4 GET PUT IN THE GAME! Why that would be completely _unheard _ of it's not like there have been games with more than three **canonically and officially** LGBTQ+ characte- Dragon Age 2 Dragon Age: Inquisition Dishonored Dishonored 2 Assassin's Creed Syndicate Read Only Memories Undertale Transistor Fallout 4 Borderlands 2 Guild Wars 2 Mass Effect 3 Star Wars: The Old Republic The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Magical Diary (etc) Oh wait, yes there totally have been. If you've played those games and ~magically~ managed to enjoy them despite the presence of those _ever so attention-seeking_ queer characters then I don't see why LoL should be any different. > You're fighting for virtual nonsense I'm sure to someone who has never had to be discriminated because of their sexuality/gender/romantic attraction, fair LGBTQ+ representation in the media must seem like "virtual nonsense". Have you considered that some people are actually _affected_ by being hugely underrepresented for decades across the world? As shocking as this might sound, not everyone is like you. > nothing would change if a goddamn GAME had lgbt representation in it Siiigh and here I was, hoping that you were capable of scrolling up and reading what I have already written and posted 2 days ago. > "Why are you pushing for representation so hard?" > > A: The benefits of having LGTBQ+ representation in ANY game or medium are many and they affect both queer and non-queer people alike. If a gay character is included in a game played by people -especially young people like kids and teenagers- (cough LoL cough) then those people get to come in contact with queer characters. They get to learn that being Gay/Bi/Ace/Trans/Non-Binary is ok, it's not wrong and that -much like LITERALLY anyone else- these people need to be respected and not discriminated for who they are. Additionally, queer children/teenagers/adults get to understand that aspect of themselves much faster and don't end up with internalized queerphobia issues as they grow. This is just a simplified explanation but you get the gist. Feel free to use google for a more detailed explanation. I could record a video of myself reading the words out to you if you'd like. > If you really want representation you should seek it from your country's government Yes let me just drive to the nearest Parliament, stand outside waiting for politicians to approach me and then -while waving a huge sign that reads "You're here, I'm queer"- demand that they come up with a way to both combat bigotry and represent LGBTQ+ people. Mayhaps I should demand that they take time out of writing legislation to develop an online game? Should I press them to work on it for approximately six years until it's popular enough across the world for that representation to have an impactful effect? Unless of course you're referring to Queer activism, in which case I'm waaaaay ahead of you buddy. > I wonder how much lgbt representation there is in books or movies or tv series That's because you yourself have never been underrepresented in any medium at all. However, you would more than understand if you did belong to a minority group that is constantly underrepresented or outright denied visibility across all media. The reason why you "wonder" is because you've never had to, you've never had to wonder if other people like you actually existed or if you were to be considered an "aberration" or something "wrong".
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkdash,realm=EUNE,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=docGj6Ax,comment-id=001f0000,timestamp=2016-12-11T23:53:37.312+0000) > > To quote myself (again): > > And again > > And again > > > And *siiigh* again... > > If you're having trouble looking at words on a screen, then may I suggest you get a friend to read them out for you? not a single one of those unnecessary blocks of text actually address the question of why would they lose a pg13 rating to make a political statement that in no way would help advance league anywhere. and if lgbtq+ isnt inherently sexual, then theres a lot of lgbtq+ characters. like all of them actually. pg13 is the most wanted rating in the video game and movie space. its why movies like batman and the avengers dont show sex or blood. its why games like league stay away from gore. it ensures you have the highest possible audience, mature enough to interest the adults and yet innocent enough to allow the kids to be a part of it. and any mentioning of lgbtq+ would abolish that. not because of riot, but because of the ESRB or whatever name it has in europe. its simply not a viable option. plus they are a video game company not a gay rights lobbying group.
Alright how's this, I'm going to simplify all my arguments to a painstaking degree, until you finally understand what they are. > not a single one of those unnecessary blocks of text actually address the question of why would they lose a pg13 rating to make a political statement Adding LGBTQ+ characters to the game will not take away their pg13 rating. I don't understand why you are so fixated on the idea that it will. Ekko has a voice line in which he admits to once having a crush on Jinx. That line made it to the game and yet, the pg13 rating didn't fly away into the skies. If he had a similar voice line in which he admits to having a crush on Ezreal (or some other male champion his age) then would that take the pg13 rating away? No, no it wouldn't. Don't try to argue it would, those two examples are identical. It's just that in one case he is read as straight but in the other bi. Riot doesn't have to lose their precious pg13 ratings at all, LGBTQ+ people aren't inherently sexual and their inclusion isn't part of "adult" material. Gay children exist, bi children exist. Teenagers that are gay or bi also exist. Having them in a game won't turn it into an "adults only" one. > and if lgbtq+ isnt inherently sexual, then theres a lot of lgbtq+ characters. like all of them actually. Not a single champion has been confirmed to be queer in their lore, interactions or by the developers and writers. If you think that a champion might still be queer regardless, then please refer to my simple 4-step flowchart in the comments. You might find that it eliminates all of them. > plus they are a video game company not a gay rights lobbying group. And yet somehow, several companies that make games across the world have included LGBTQ+ characters in their works. Without being a "gay rights lobbying group". How could that happen I wonder? It's almost as if being a video game company doesn't matter in the slightest because you can still add queer characters to your game. > a political statement that in no way would help advance league anywhere. See, this is how I know you didn't read any of the things I've already said. > A: Let's clarify something. Including canonical LGBTQ+ representation in your game is not a "political statement" (and the fact that you think otherwise is quite telling). However, including ZERO queer characters is, in fact, a political statement. This discussion isn't about how LGBTQ+ champions will make the game more popular or increase sales. This is about why the inclusion and representation of queer characters within LoL is necessary and about how such inclusion will benefit people worldwide, queer and non-queer alike.
: > [{quoted}](name=JQKAndrei,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=docGj6Ax,comment-id=001a0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-12T09:54:44.397+0000) > > He meant that based the lgbt population, in percentage, 1 gay champion per all the human champs we have is enough. Yeah. You can google statistics to see percentage of lgb etc. Also these champions are fictional characters. They are created by people. @Darkdash: You want to force your will on creators for more lgb champions? Does this make sense to you? How would you like it if you were content creator and someone else told you what to create?
> You can google statistics You don't need to google anything it's basic math that I just demonstrated in the reply above. > Also these champions are fictional characters. They are created by people. Yeah so?? Queer characters are also created by people, sometimes by the same people that also create non-queer characters. Riot can make LGBTQ+ champions, it's not fricking rocket science. > You want to force your will on creators for more lgb champions? They key word here is "more". There aren't any. Like at all. Did you read what I literally had to copy paste from the original post for you to notice? Do you bother reading the replies I write at all?? > How would you like it if you were content creator and someone else told you what to create? There is a difference between demanding that a creator change the core narrative of their work simply to fit your preferences and to ask for actual, canonical and **FAIR ** representation for minorities that are demonized, discriminated and painfully underrepresented in the media.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: He meant that based the lgbt population, in percentage, 1 gay champion per all the human champs we have is enough.
Let me just do some quick math for you. If we had 1 gay champion out of 56 (which we _**do not**_ but let's entertain the hypothetical) then that would be 1.7% of the entire human cast. **1.7%** That's nothing, that's absolutely nothing. I _specifically_ mentioned adding many MANY LBGTQ+ champions in the game so that a level of meaningful representation was achieved. 1 gay champion is not acceptable queer representation.
: This game isn't about representing sexuality or gender politics. Considering all your replies are dismissive and condescending it seems like you have a lack of tolerance for opinions disagreeing with your own. That's the literal definition of bigotry.
If my replies seem a tad ~antsy~ towards people commenting, then that's because almost no one here has taken the time to actually go through my arguments before commenting. Time and time again I have to scroll around the discussion, copy a specific bit of text that answers all their questions and then be presented with another argument that has been addressed _already_. > it seems like you have a lack of tolerance for opinions disagreeing with your own There is a difference between shouting at or insulting another person and responding to their comment by refuting their arguments. You are wrong to think that I am bigoted just because I disagree with what you have to say and am prepared to argue with you. That's the point of discussions and forums like this. You might notice that another, very vocal commenter **did ** -in fact- spout toxicity at me, yet I don't see anyone speaking to **them ** about intolerance. > This game isn't about representing sexuality or gender politics. No game is about representing sexuality or gender politics. There is no game titled "Gender Warriors" or "Sexuality Fiesta" or "Representation Craze". LGBTQ+ representation is important and needed in a lot of games (especially LoL since it has exactly _zero_ queer characters to date). Whether or not Riot started developing LoL with the explicit purpose of representing queer characters is irrelevant (and even if it weren't, there's no reason why they can't include LGBTQ+ characters now).
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkdash,realm=EUNE,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=docGj6Ax,comment-id=001a0000,timestamp=2016-12-11T08:56:28.660+0000) > > I suppose that's a suitable oversimplification of dozens of arguments examining -in detail- the benefits of queer representation. Also, if you're "too bored to read all that" then perhaps you shouldn't comment at all in the first place. No one forced you to click into this discussion, you saw the title and entered with the full knowledge of what its contents would entail. The least you could do is *actually read* what I have to say. Out of 56 human characters 1 is gay. I think the lgb players are represented fairly. In fact it will still be fair if they release another 50 human champions and none of them is gay/lesbian or w/e.
Here's a revolutionary suggestion: Read. What. I. Have Written. > "I thought Taric was gay, isn't that enough?" > > A: First of all Taric is most assuredly not gay. There has been no canonical confirmation of this, no bit of lore that states his sexuality, nothing. The reason why people assume otherwise is because of a homophobic joke that was spurred by the League community when the champion came out. But even if Riot were to come out today and boldly state that Taric is "a fan of the man" then that'd still barely be a single step forward. The notion that just one gay man among hundreds of straight characters would be enough representation is a mistaken one. We don't need just one or two or even three queer characters, we need MANY -and I mean MANY- LGBTQ+ characters in this game. We need a wide roster of diverse characters with varying sexual orientations, gender identities etc. This is a game where each champion's personality and gameplay mechanics have so much variety to them, so why shouldn't that also be true for their sexuality/gender/romantic attraction? _EVEN IF_ Taric was gay that would **still ** not be enough representation (it wouldn't even be good representation). The fact that some people think that 1 gay character = "fair representation" just baffles me. If LoL had 56 human female champions and just one male champion would that not upset you? Of course, but so long as people other than yourself don't get visibility or recognition in the media then you're fine with ignoring that.
: Why would a pg13 rated game make a statement about people's sex life? And risk their pg13 rating to do it? Realistically we should have no idea what characters like fcking since it has no bearing on the game.
To quote myself (again): > It's interesting that the second someone suggests LGBTQ+ representation, people like you immediately assume that these characters need to be presented in ~explicitly sexual situations~. As amazing as this may sound to someone of your sensibilities, it is very very possible to have queer characters in your game that don't constantly have sex with each other. Stop demonizing LGBTQ+ representation as inherently "sexual" and stop insinuating that any meaningful queer representation would be "deviant" or material of an "adult" nature. Children across the world are queer, teenagers are queer, that doesn't make them sexual. How is this so hard to process? And again > League of Legends is a game where nearly every female champion wears next to no clothing and is constantly depicted as having massive boobs. League of Legends is a game in which Evelynn's splash show's her killing a man while having sex with him. League of Legends is a game where even in animations, female characters are placed in situations that are inherently sexual (like when katarina was nearly stabbed by Rengar in the crotch). League of Legends is a game where Ahri, Evelynn, Cassiopeia, Janna, Miss Fortune, Nidalee, Zyra Elise etc rely on their sexuality to "seduce" their enemies. This is a game that has been sexual since the start. > > But you know what isn't sexual? Two boys holding hands or two girls stating their attraction towards one another. If parents of children can't put up with queer people being represented in their children's games then that is because they are bigoted. Full stop. If you think that two teenagers expressing romantic affection towards each other is "perverse" or "sexual" simply because they are queer then there is something profoundly wrong with how you view the world and other people. And again > "Why are you pushing for representation so hard?" > > A: The benefits of having LGTBQ+ representation in ANY game or medium are many and they affect both queer and non-queer people alike. If a gay character is included in a game played by people -especially young people like kids and teenagers- (cough LoL cough) then those people get to come in contact with queer characters. They get to learn that being Gay/Bi/Ace/Trans/Non-Binary is ok, it's not wrong and that -much like LITERALLY anyone else- these people need to be respected and not discriminated for who they are. Additionally, queer children/teenagers/adults get to understand that aspect of themselves much faster and don't end up with internalized queerphobia issues as they grow. This is just a simplified explanation but you get the gist. Feel free to use google for a more detailed explanation. And *siiigh* again... > "These characters are fictional so it doesn't matter because they're not real!" > > A: Fictional or not, having queer champions would offer visibility to many many MANY people out there who are mocked, shamed and discriminated for who they are. They'd be represented and recognized as real people with real struggles that exist. If you truly don't care about fictional characters then I don't see why this should bother you. If you're having trouble looking at words on a screen, then may I suggest you get a friend to read them out for you?
: You are being paranoid and alienating the people you are claiming to help. What a great job at being a good person!
If by "alienating" you mean "trying to get some meaningful representation for them in a popular game that will get noticed across the world" then yes, I suppose I am. However, as that is nowhere near the actual definition of that word, I would kindly ask that you stop trying to convince both me and yourself that LGBTQ+ representation is "alienating" LGBTQ+ people.
Infernape (EUW)
: >Someone in the comments mentioned a bit of lore that referenced Diana and Leona's romantic relationship. This part of the lore has existed for a while now and yet ~miraculously~ Tencent has not stomped and ground it to fine dust. No, their lores got redone with the addition of Aurelion Sol. The same way Caitlyn, Vi, Ezreal, and Orianna's lores got changed with the addition of Camille. >Additionally, in the "A new Dawn" cinematic, Grave's cigar can be seen bright, clear and as prominent as ever. Has Tencent taken that animation down from the official LoL channel? No, of course not. There's a difference between an animation which is on YouTube and actual in game content. Comparing the two is like comparing cats and dogs, they're very different things. >Best case scenario is, we get some representation in the game. Worst case scenario is that nothing changes. The thing is, it wouldn't be relevant to the game itself. It would literally be a token character due to no other character in game having a definite orientation. Secondly, how does one go about adding a gay or whatever character into a universe where every other character's orientations are left ambiguous without doing the whole "_**HELLO**_ I'M GAY!" thing?
> No, their lores got redone with the addition of Aurelion Sol. The same way Caitlyn, Vi, Ezreal, and Orianna's lores got changed with the addition of Camille. If that's the case then that's because Riot wanted to change the world of Runeterra once again (as they'd done in the past by removing the Summoners from the Lore) not because Tencent specifically demanded them to. > There's a difference between an animation which is on YouTube and actual in game content. They literally are not. If Riot can get away with giving Graves a cigar in an animation then they can get away with adding queer representation in one too. Honestly this whole argument exists only to derail the conversation into a corner of nonsense. Queer representation NEEDS to happen in the League. Whether it will be censored or not by Tencent (and it won't) is irrelevant and not part of this discussion. If you'd like to start a separate thread debating the statistic and probability of that happening then don't let me stop you. > The thing is, it wouldn't be relevant to the game itself. It would literally be a token character due to no other character in game having a definite orientation. This has been addressed and countered both in what I wrote and in the comments. Take the time to actually read them before saying anything else (and by that I mean read **the whole thing** not just the stuff I'm gonna paste here now) > "Having a champion that is queer for the sake of being queer will just turn them into a token stereotype" > > A: You do realise that being queer won't be the only discerning characteristic those champions will have compared to others right? If Diana was bi, then would she only been known as the "Bi champion"? Not the vengeful moon-worshiping assassin who was betrayed by her own people and took her revenge? Would her backstory and complicated relationship with Leona simply ~not exist~ because she was bi? What people fail to realise is that queer characters aren't just characters that go around shouting "I'M HERE AND I'M QUEER" (as amazing as that would be to witness on the fields of battle), they are literally a character, who has a personality and identity and ALSO happens to be queer. This aspect of themselves can affect the way they interact with others, but not always and not with the same intensity. And if you're really so terribly worried about falling into stereotypes then just ask Riot to add MANY LGBTQ+ characters into their game. The more diverse they get the less likely we are to stereotype them. > > "But there are no easy ways to portray gay characters in this game" > > A: Yes there are! Like dozens of them! Interactions with other champions, references in their lore, the design of their outfits, the cinematics/animations/comics with which they're introduced to us, voice lines ANYTHING. I should like to think that the writers and designers working at Riot are skilled enough to be able to create a character who is not straight. > > Remember Ekko's "I had a crush" line he uses on Jinx? Well make him say something similar to Ezreal and _BAM _ you got yourself a canonically bisexual time-traveling assassin. That's just one example, there's obviously waaaaaay more that can be done, but you get the idea. >
: Can't believe this topic hasn't died out yet. But oh well, i guess the overly sensitive will always be offended by something, including but not limited to what the OP of this topic demands, no matter how absurd, unnecessary and illogical that demand is. League of Legends is NOT an LGBTQ dispay platform, it's a game with fantasy characters and there's no doubt in my mind there's enough Reddit and/or Tumblr LoL romance/pr0n fanfiction to go around for everyone, because rule 34. Now run along and accept reality as it is, that you can not always change it to bend to just YOUR will, needs and desires.
> But oh well, i guess the overly sensitive will always be offended by something, including but not limited to what the OP of this topic demands, no matter how absurd, unnecessary and illogical that demand is. I'm sorry to tell you this, but suggesting that the act of including LGBTQ+ characters in a game is "absurd, unnecessary and illogical" is queerphobic. I would advise that you read up on queer politics and also maybe what I actually wrote. Also, if you want this discussion to die out, then maybe it'd be best if you don't comment in it at all. > you can not always change it to bend to just YOUR will, needs and desires. Yes because *obviously* the eradication of bigotry and queerphobia worldwide along with the recognition of LGBTQ+ people as valid and real is just "my need and desire". There's definitely not millions of people out there who are asking for queer representation in media, no siree, it's just me the overly-sensitive person that gets offended ever so easily. Here's a fun game for you sitting at home, scroll down to the comments section and try and spot how/why so many people get increasingly offended by the thought of including queer characters in a game (you get extra points if the person has mentioned that they "don't care if a character is gay" or "have no problem with gay people"). Make sure to mark down comments that end with the user typing in all caps and spouting toxic profanities, they'll double your score in the bonus round!
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: It's the way he speaks, his intonation and his obsession for beauty that is perceived as feminine. Also, when taunting another taric he says "I like the cut of your gem."
You are sorely mistaken if you think that a man is gay simply because he exhibits traits that are considered feminine. That's like the #1 stereotype that plagues people's perception of gay men, that they always act in a "feminine" fashion. Do you think that gay women act in an extremely masculine fashion? What about bi people, do the act in *both* a masculine *and* feminine way at the same time? Ace people? Do the not **_act at all??_** Are they inert statues in the highway of personality characteristics? Don't try to defend a ham-handed stereotype as good queer representation and don't try and argue that homophobia constitutes valid LGBTQ+ representation.
Adama (EUW)
: I'm sorry I didn't bother reading any further after your false ''translation'', twisting my words like a true SJW. You don't know me. You have no idea if I am gay, what gender I am, if I am fat or thin, or if I am autistic or anything at all. You assume stuff and are no better then the people you despise. Done with reading your butthurt posts, go play the victim if you must.
I think it's safe to assume that someone so opposed to LGBTQ+ representation, someone who uses the phrase "I have nothing against gay people" and someone who has no clue what discrimination is or how it affects minorities like LGBTQ+ people is far from being gay or non-cis. > I'm sorry I didn't bother reading any further after your false ''translation'' Yes, because refusing to listen to what the other person has to say is a great way to win an argument. Very mature, I must say. Oh and if you think that people are "playing the victim" when they're talking about the many real dangers they face every day and will continue to face every day for the rest of their lives, then you are extremely insolent and misguided.
: ***
> YOU'RE AN IGNORANT LIBERAL DESERVING OF SOME SERIOUS CONVERSION THERAPY > > DO YOU HAVE ANY F@#$%ING IDEA WHAT BIGOT MEANS ? I think you've just provided all of us with a very apt demonstration of the word's meaning.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: Tencent is just a company, they may or may not be supporting gay marriage and other stuff, we can't know.
Someone in the comments mentioned a bit of lore that referenced Diana and Leona's romantic relationship. This part of the lore has existed for a while now and yet ~miraculously~ Tencent has not stomped and ground it to fine dust. Additionally, in the "A new Dawn" cinematic, Grave's cigar can be seen bright, clear and as prominent as ever. Has Tencent taken that animation down from the official LoL channel? No, of course not. If Riot makes an LGBTQ+ champion then Tencent will not just crack their knuckles and demand that said champion is pulled out of the game. That's just not gonna happen, the backlash alone from the entire LoL community will be devastating. Not only would it damage their reputation, it would also gravely affect the rapport they've set up with other gaming companies they own. Some gaming companies might even refuse to be bought by them, really this scenario is very unlikely. **_EVEN IF_** there was a chance that they might try and pull something like this, that's still not valid justification for not ever trying to include LGBTQ+ characters within the League. Best case scenario is, we get some representation in the game. Worst case scenario is that nothing changes.
: OK first off, I don't really feel all that inclined to read through tonnes and tonnes of pages of text, nor watch a series, simply to see your examples. In no argument or discussion can you seriously expect anyone to do that. Secondly, I'm just going to drop this arguemtn simply because it is going absolutely nowhere. I think I know why; I just. Don't. Care. And no, before you jump on the soapbox and have a go at me for being bigoted or an asshat or whatever, I mean I just don't care about your sexual orientation, or that of a fictional character. You could be gay, straight, asexual, agender or an amorphous blob from the far reaches of space and I wouldn't give one iota of a fuck. Is the character good? Is it well-written? Do they have an interesting personality or motive? If so, they're a good character in my books. If they turn out to be queer? Eh, doesn't matter. If Riot wants to make character that's queer that's up to them. Hell, chances are that it might happen down the line. But more or less demanding it and telling everyone who disagrees that they are wrong is not going to get you anywhere.
Allow me to interject with the following quote from my original post > "I don't care about gay characters I just want to play the game" > > A: Good, then this discussion neither impacts nor concerns you, have a nice day and please close the door on your way out. If only you'd gone through the trouble of reading what I wrote before scrolling all the way down to argue with me... alas, tis but a dream to expect so. You specifically asked for examples of queer characters. I provided you with them. Just because you then dismissed them as "too long" because you realized that you were wrong and that queer characters are actually extremely easy to write isn't my problem. > If they turn out to be queer? Eh, doesn't matter. To you it might "not matter" but to many it is both vital and important that more queer characters are represented in the media (especially a game as widely popular as LoL). If you don't understand why LGBTQ+ representation is important then that's fine, just don't try to deny it from those who need it so desperately.
: OK , let me put it like this . NO ONE GIVES A FLYING F$@K WHAT SEXUAL ORIENTATION THE CHAMPIONS IN THIS GAME HAVE BUT WHILE WE'RE AT IT WHY DON'T WE PETITION RIOT/TENCENT TO MAKE A GAME MODE WHERE CHAMPIONS MEET IN THE BARON PIT AND THEY MAKE SWEET GAY LOVE , IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY ? WOULD THAT MAKE YOU SHUT UP ABOUT THIS "ISSUE" ? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT ? LEAGUE GAY PORN WITH CHAMPIONS ? SO INSTEAD OF PLAYING A GAME OF "LET'S TRY AND DESTROY THE ENEMY NEXUS" YOU WANT TO MAKE IT ABOUT GAY PORN ? HOW REVOLUTIONARY !!!! WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT ? BEFORE YOUR SUGGESTION WE COULD ONLY DO ONE OF THE TWO AT ANY GIVEN TIME , NOOOW WITH YOUR SUGGESTION WE CAN DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME , WOOOOOOOOW , WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ? OUTPLAYING YOUR OPPONENTS MECHANICALLY AND THEN "FINISHING THEM OFF" ? WOOOOOOOOW BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD WOOOOOOW (all this had to be written in caps so that you understand it's meant to be sarcastic , because i'm pretty sure you couldn't tell sarcasm if it hit you in the face ) Also you stated that ALL champions in the game need to be gay , bi , w/e . Nowhere in your long post did you suggest to leave at least one...ONE...heterosexual champion . Why do you want to make a safe space out of league so badly ? Also , the manner in which you present facts in your post make it seem like you really resent heterosexual couples...like ...genuine ...active hate towards heterosexual couples. You even have the F$#@ING AUDACITY to call parents bigoted and homophobic because they don't want their children to be exposed to sexual content in a game ( as a heads up...parents in general have problems with either violence or sexual content of ANY kind (AAAANNNYYYYY KIND , GOT THAT ?) in the games their children play and that is perfectly fine...if you think parents are wrong and you want children and teenagers to be exposed to porn in a video game you're some sort of special pedophile psychopath that hides behind a victim mentality ). Truth be told you're just as bad as the people you despise . {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
> OK , let me put it like this . NO ONE GIVES A FLYING F$@K WHAT SEXUAL ORIENTATION THE CHAMPIONS IN THIS GAME HAVE If you really don't care then I don't see why this is an issue with you. Unless of course you DO in fact care and merely choose to hide your prejudice behind flimsy arguments such as this one (arguments that I have addressed already many many times) > IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT ? LEAGUE GAY PORN WITH CHAMPIONS ? It's interesting that the second someone suggests LGBTQ+ representation, people like you immediately assume that these characters need to be presented in ~explicitly sexual situations~. As amazing as this may sound to someone of your sensibilities, it is very very possible to have queer characters in your game that don't constantly have sex with each other. Stop demonizing LGBTQ+ representation as inherently "sexual" and stop insinuating that any meaningful queer representation would be "deviant" or material of an "adult" nature. Children across the world are queer, teenagers are queer, that doesn't make them sexual. How is this so hard to process? > Also you stated that ALL champions in the game need to be gay , bi , w/e That was sarcasm, a concept you seem to think I have no grasp on. How ironic is it then, that you yourself can't seem to identify it. > Nowhere in your long post did you suggest to leave at least one...ONE...heterosexual champion You mean aside from the already existing champions within the league that are coded as straight? You do realize that this is a post ~specifically~ about LGBTQ+ representation right? Like, this is what we're talking about, representation of non-straight and non-cis characters in the League. Because so far, Riot has included _zero _ champions that would constitute queer representation. "Including more straight champions" or whatever it is you're talking about has no place in this discussion. > Also , the manner in which you present facts in your post make it seem like you really resent heterosexual couples...like ...genuine ...active hate towards heterosexual couples. Clearly if someone talks about the constant struggle and discrimination queer people face -along with the many reasons why more representation and visibility for them in the media would be _extremely _ beneficial- means that that person must surely hate straight people. However, if a bunch of trolls and bigots actively deny representation for LGBTQ+ people in a game (for very thinly-veiled reasons) then that's apparently fine and totally not queerphobic. Stop being so goddamn entitled, just because people want to have discussions that don't include the subject of straight people doesn't mean they all fantasize about hating on them 24/7. If you're really so desperate to exclude LGBTQ+ people from this or any other game then why don't you just say that queer representation upsets you because you're bigoted? > You even have the F$#@ING AUDACITY to call parents bigoted and homophobic because they don't want their children to be exposed to sexual content in a game League of Legends is a game where nearly every female champion wears next to no clothing and is constantly depicted as having massive boobs. League of Legends is a game in which Evelynn's splash show's her killing a man while having sex with him. League of Legends is a game where even in animations, female characters are placed in situations that are inherently sexual (like when katarina was nearly stabbed by Rengar in the crotch). League of Legends is a game where Ahri, Evelynn, Cassiopeia, Janna, Miss Fortune, Nidalee, Zyra Elise etc rely on their sexuality to "seduce" their enemies. This is a game that has been sexual since the start. But you know what isn't sexual? Two boys holding hands or two girls stating their attraction towards one another. If parents of children can't put up with queer people being represented in their children's games then that is because they are bigoted. Full stop. If you think that two teenagers expressing romantic affection towards each other is "perverse" or "sexual" simply because they are queer then there is something profoundly wrong with how you view the world and other people. If you think that insulting me by calling me a "special pedophile psychopath" is lending credence to your words, then know that it does the exact opposite. You have shown exactly what kind of person you are and why you're so against queer representation.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: >Does Tencent meticulously screen every character from every game company they own just to root out elements they dislike? Given how they removed Graves' cigar and skulls in splash arts, I believe they have some inspectors, yes.
Allow me to reiterate myself a third time > _**China has actually started supporting gay marriage**_ If your argument is that Tencent will be opposed to LGBTQ+ characters due to an unpleasant stigma of queerphobia lingering in their CEOs' heads, then please note that such a scenario is highly unlikely. Even if it weren't, how about we actually, at least _try_ to get some representation instead of declaring the whole notion a pointless effort?
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: I don't know about queer but for gay representation we have {{champion:44}}, even if it's not intended or explicited by Riot, the community perceives it as gay so it's actually even better.
Taric is little other than a homophobic joke started by a community that perceived non-violence as a distinctly feminine trait and thus concluded that Taric must unequivocally be gay. He does not consist of queer representation of any sort and -were you to look at the title of this discussion- you would notice the word "canonical" in the middle. We need actual, canonically LGBTQ+ characters in this game, not cheap jokes.
: Here's what I'll say about these examples; For the comics, the only one I truly cared to read at any great length (that is to say, the first chapter) was the Magekiller one, and if one of those characters turned out to be queer (I'm not even sure if that's the 'correct' terminology) I wouldn't care, because all that I'd care about is their personality and actions, not their sexual orientation. For the games, I've played both of them, and again, there sexual orientation didn't really make a single difference to me. They were well written characters full stop. Them being queer or not was a minute factor. And I legitimately can't say anything about those shows because I have never watched them and I really don't feel inclined to. Also, the fuck is Homestuck? As far as I'm concerned, those that I do know about are well written characters that happen to be queer. Yeah, that's probably splitting hairs, but frankly they'd be good characters, queer or not.
It's not my fault you couldn't be bothered to read the examples I provided. Have you considered that the presence of queer characters doesn't exist because being queer is "innately ~magical~ and ~speeecial~." Obviously being queer doesn't immediately make any character good. That's not what this discussion is about, we are not debating methods with which you can ensure a successful and popular character's creation. This is me trying to explain why queer representation is important and why the presence of LGBTQ+ champions in this game is not only highly beneficial to all parties involved, but also a sorely needed necessity. > "Why are you pushing for representation so hard?" > > A: The benefits of having LGTBQ+ representation in ANY game or medium are many and they affect both queer and non-queer people alike. If a gay character is included in a game played by people -especially young people like kids and teenagers- (cough LoL cough) then those people get to come in contact with queer characters. They get to learn that being Gay/Bi/Ace/Trans/Non-Binary is ok, it's not wrong and that -much like LITERALLY anyone else- these people need to be respected and not discriminated for who they are. Additionally, queer children/teenagers/adults get to understand that aspect of themselves much faster and don't end up with internalized queerphobia issues as they grow. > having queer champions would offer visibility to many many MANY people out there who are mocked, shamed and discriminated for who they are. They'd be represented and recognized as real people with real struggles that exist. If you want to argue with me, then at least take the time to listen to what I have to say beforehand.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: >This game is extremely popular worldwide and played by many people who are gay/bi/ace/aro/non-binary/trans etc yet none of these people are represented within the game itself. They are represented as players and part of the community, just like everybody else.
No no they are not. I don't understand what part of "queer representation" you can't understand, but LGBTQ+ people have not been represented *at all* in the League. Five months ago there was a person asking for a Pride flag icon to be added to the game and people were tripping over themselves just to shut that down. Please kindly refer to my chart going through the 4 easy steps of determining if a character consists of acceptable queer representation or not.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: A chinese company actually owns the game (Tencent), the decision is theirs, just how the removed skulls and Graves' cigar.
Aside from the fact that I've already mentioned that China is moving closer to accepting gay marriage, are you honestly trying to argue that Riot has no freedom whatsoever? That every creative decision they make has to be carefully examined and/or vetted by a company that isn't at all involved with the design of their champions? Does Tencent meticulously screen every character from every game company they own just to root out elements they dislike?
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: >Not having gay characters will deny visibility and representation for countless people worldwide That's not the purpose of the game, and it's not the purpose of any other released champion until now. >it will leave the game in a state where it sorely lacks ANY LGBTQ+ representation and diversity and it will be an action that will continue to propagate the heterononormative and cisnormative narrative that bigots find solace in. It doesn't "lack" LGBTwhatever representation because it doesn't need it in the first place, the champions could all be asexual aliens or robots or cyborgs and it wouldn't change a bit. >The same narrative that ends up negatively influencing millions of people every day. Mind your words, it's not that every thing that's not gay or that doesn't have anything to do with it is negative. I don't suggest you to adopt this mentality of "we against the world" because when you start a discussion by _blaming_ how we don't give you visibility the common reaction would be "Go F* yourself", whatever their opinion is. I'm pretty sure if you made a post like "Wouldn't it be nice to have some gay or sexually ambiguous champions? I think it would be interesting" you would've had a lot more support instead of going "I DEMAND GAY CHAMPIONS, we want this and everyone who disagrees is a homophobic bigot".
> It doesn't "lack" LGBTwhatever representation because it doesn't need it in the first place Yes, yes it does. I've already explained why several times, both in the comments and in the actual post. > That's not the purpose of the game, and it's not the purpose of any other released champion until now. It doesn't matter if the absence of LGBTQ+ champions was "purposeful" or not, the effects hardly vary. Not including LGBTQ+ representation in your game denies people visibility and the legitimacy of their identities. At the same time, it creates a platform for bigots to feel more comfortable and a place where they can perpetuate their hate. This game is extremely popular worldwide and played by many people who are gay/bi/ace/aro/non-binary/trans etc yet none of these people are represented within the game itself. > I don't suggest you to adopt this mentality of "we against the world" Donald Trump has been elected president of the US and Mike Pence will be the new Vice President. Those two men are renowned for their platform of hate and discrimination, which includes some pretty messed up anti-LGBTQ+ views. These men were voted for by millions of people, literally millions (even though they didn't win the popular vote) and Trump has already appointed several hatemongers and neonazis in positions of power, all of whom also share those bigoted views. Hate crimes keep happening all the time across the world and queer people are still not properly represented in the media. It's very hard to not adopt a ~we against the world~ mentality if you're queer and trying to survive.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: >they can easily afford to lose a few bad apples We're talking about the game being banned from whole countries.
How easily do you think those (very few) countries would be able to ban a game that has not only become extremely popular but also established a culture of passionate gamers within their borders? Do you think -for instance- China could just "ban" LoL without consequence? What would happen to e-sports and competitive gaming, would China just move away from that? What about the massive revenue loss they would experience? (Also fun fact: China has actually started supporting gay marriage) (Added fun fact: there's plenty of games (dragon age, fallout, mass effect any many more ) that have had openly queer characters and they did just fine) Also I wasn't aware we adjusted the progressiveness and inclusivity of our media based on the most intolerable amongst this world's nations. Like that doesn't make any sense.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: >"It's just a game! We just want to have fun, we don't need gay characters!" >A: Yes, yes you do. If you think that having gay characters in your game will "ruin your fun" then you really really do. If you think that not having gay characters will ruin your fun then that's your problem.
Not having gay characters will deny visibility and representation for countless people worldwide (a lot of which are probably LoL players themselves), it will leave the game in a state where it sorely lacks **_ANY _** LGBTQ+ representation and diversity and it will be an action that will continue to propagate the heterononormative and cisnormative narrative that bigots find solace in. The same narrative that ends up negatively influencing millions of people every day. This isn't just "my problem" this isn't a problem I alone have. This is a glaring fault present in every medium that needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. It's 2016, having gay characters in your game shouldn't be a matter of controversy, it shouldn't be a revolutionary suggestion. Having gay characters should be common and mundane.
JQKAndrei (EUW)
: It's not Riot's argument, it's Riot's _**customers'**_ arguments. They'll lose players if they do this, may it be wrong or right, it's a bad marketing action.
I think they can easily afford to lose a few bad apples for the sake of helping and inspiring millions of people worldwide. Don't they boldly state that "People who use racist or homophobic slurs get punished by the Tribunal system" in their game? Riot has already demonstrated that they neither want nor need bigots in LoL and that such people are not welcome. The Universal Rules for making comments in discussions like this attest to that. So no, bigots playing their game is not a valid argument here.
Kusluk (EUW)
: All she did was whine about how unfair life is, she couldn't speak properly and loved "the little people". Pathetic. Standard bitch character wanting to be loved, how can anyone think that's how people ought to behave. Regarding this whole amusing post, fundamentally the problem is that people don't care. You think its important, the majority doesn't. Alot like Sera in that game, she think its super important to save the little people, everyone else is like um big picture that demon guy is going to kill us all. You make it worse for yourself by shouting about it. At the basest possible level the people who scream and shout at the problems "look at me blah blah" never get respected or accepted. The people who shut up and get on with life, however unfair you may think it is will eventually always find acceptance via respect earned. Think about any team activity you've ever been a part of, the ones who shout and scream and think they are entitled to something will never get accepted. Sex sells, and sells to the majority that fundamental fact will never ever change. if you can make a character like kata or ahri with big tits and put them on display you will make money. Coming on a game forum and telling people what they are doing is "wrong" and it should be this way will never ever work, you will just get trolled. p.s. A Powerpoint presentation about why you're right? Come on.... Mature a bit buddy
> The people who shut up and get on with life, however unfair you may think it is will eventually always find acceptance via respect earned. I understand that this is apparently an alien concept for many people in this thread but, simply ignoring a problem -in this case the institutional discrimination against LGBTQ+ people across the world- won't make it go away. If you break your leg then you can't get it fixed without going to see a doctor. You can't fight bigotry by not recognizing it's there. > Think about any team activity you've ever been a part of, the ones who shout and scream and think they are entitled to something will never get accepted. Apparently things like "I want people like me to be represented fairly in the media like everyone else" and "I don't want to get murdered or have my rights take away by bigots" consist of entitlement now? Is it "entitled" to demand that the world recognises that I and many people like me exist and that we shouldn't be discriminated for being alive? > You make it worse for yourself by shouting about it. Translation: "People taking a stand against systematic oppression and bigotry is something that upsets me to no end and causes me to spout hatred. It's LGBTQ+ people's fault that they are getting hurt because they are defending themselves when they are being harassed or treated unfairly. I am saying this as a person with the privilege of having no experience of ever being discriminated in the same manner that queer people have for decades. I have never felt unsafe or endangered or afraid simply because I existed. We should all just be eternally silent about the struggles we face."
: I am bored to read all that. In a few words you ask for gay characters? Is that it?
I suppose that's a suitable oversimplification of dozens of arguments examining -in detail- the benefits of queer representation. Also, if you're "too bored to read all that" then perhaps you shouldn't comment at all in the first place. No one forced you to click into this discussion, you saw the title and entered with the full knowledge of what its contents would entail. The least you could do is *actually read* what I have to say.
: What is the objective of this game ? it's simple : "destroy the enemy nexus" ... no one cares about any champion's sexual orientation because it's irrelevant to the game so this entire rant of yours is not needed , please refrain yourself from trying to shove your lgbt rights down the throats of people that try to play this game to relax ; thank you , good night , go back to wherever you came from Sir . :D
Siiiigh. I am beginning to wonder if there isn't some glitch in the system that causes the original discussion to vanish every five minutes. > "It's just a game! We just want to have fun, we don't need gay characters!" > > A: Yes, yes you do. If you think that having gay characters in your game will "ruin your fun" then you really really do. > "I don't care about gay characters I just want to play the game" > > A: Good, then this discussion neither impacts nor concerns you, have a nice day and please close the door on your way out. > "I don't want queer characters shoved down my throat" > > A: By the same logic, LGBTQ+ people should be out in the streets, screaming in anger. How many straight characters do you think they have to "swallow" every day? Also, again, if this feels like something is shoved down your throat just because some champions don't fancy the same people or have the same gender identity as you do, then that's still a problem YOU have. If you'd like, I can record myself reading the entire text so that you won't have to strain your eyes.
: In other words youre a special snowflake
: I don't think the game's pushing the sexuality of any of the champions and there's no clear proof of any of the game's characters sexual orientation, including any of them being hetero either.
Let me just answer this comment by creating a simple flowchart of sorts. This is the flowchart you use if you wanna make sure your characters are officially Queer(TM). 1) Do queer children/teenagers/adults(?) look up to those characters and relate to them -aside from other reasons like age, race, background etc- because they are queer? If yes go to (2) if no go to (3) 2) When learning about said characters, do bigots understand that they are queer? Do they realise that they are gay/bi/poly/non-binary/agender/aro/ace etc? If yes go to (4) if no go to (3) [3) The characters do not constitute queer representation.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) 4) Congratulations, you've made the world a slightly less bad place.
IzzŸ (EUW)
: You're welcome <3 I couldn't find a single comment agreeing with you so I wanted to make sure you had at least one :) I'm so glad I made you happy :D :D :D
: By all means, go ahead.
[This comic has lots of queer characters](http://witchycomic.com/comic/page-1/) [and this one](http://sparklermonthly.com/ke/knights-errant-chapter-01-page-001/) (though it get's a bit violent) [and this one](http://www.gingerhaze.com/nimona) [this is a dragon age comic with queer characters](http://www.readcomics.tv/dragon-age-magekiller/chapter-1) (it's good even if you haven't read the plot) [this is a comic with many queer characters, one of which is a trans woman of colour ](http://www.readcomics.tv/the-wicked-the-divine/chapter-1)(though I should warn you, it get's a bit dark and some of the scenes in later issues get a bit explicit) [this game has many queer characters and the main character is bi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT55lch6y_U) (also amazing music) Homestuck. Just Homestuck. You need know nothing else. [This game's main character is agender and uses "they" pronouns.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hojv0m3TqA) [this show has several queer characters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Universe) (gay, polyamorous, non-binary) one of which uses "they" pronouns. [ [source ](http://pm1.narvii.com/6199/9a5cc08b6b39227bde0e78b3018159f631220edd_hq.jpg)] [this show has many queer characters and deals with many societal and cultural issues ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9c_KSZ6zMk)(also there's an autistic character in it too!) [this show has a bisexual woman of colour as a main character ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Korra)(that's not confirmed until the finale tho) and her gf is also bisexual. The upcoming comics will expand on their relationship (though you should still watch it). I could go on but I think that's enough for now.
: What, so you think they didn't go through multiple ideas and concepts before they created these characters? In all likelihood, they went through a good number of iterations before they got to the finished product. It is not as simple as to just point at a developer and go 'they did it so it must be simple!' It doesn't work like that. Also, I don't particularly enjoy Bioware games, simply because of I'm not a fan of RPGs, so I think I'll pass.
There is a difference between getting a tangible feel of a character's personality motives and backstory within your world and knowing whether or not that character is queer. It is very easy to write a queer character. If you'd like I can provide you with examples.
: Riot don't focus on relationships at all... we don't know the vast majority of relationships in the lore and the ones we do know dont state their sexuality (for example we know that illaoi and gp went out but that still could mean that either one could be bi, pan, ace, demi, gray a, and anything in between because the only evidence is one relationship which doesn't mean much)... And yes representation is extremely important, but I'd argue them being ambiguous is even better. You could look at any champion and headcannon them as a particular sexuality, which means that while there isn't any representation of anything the lack of limitations this brings means you can have them represent anything without any real counter for them not being that (basically what I'm saying is go to the dark part of tumblr if you want LBGT+ league stuff, cause that's where the headcannons for this are).
> If a character's queerness is not stated or explored or shown in any way, then they are immediately coded as straight/cis. That's just how things work, it's how we've been conditioned to think by society and movies/books/games etc that only had straight/cis characters. If you truly think we as a species can combat bigotry by not representing those affected by it then you are either misguided or a complete and utter buffoon who was never on the receiving end of discrimination. This is where the book comparison shines through. If you had to pick between a book full of blank pages and one that had an actual story which would you go for? Don't expect queer people to be content with "imagining" representation and don't expect bigots to be driven away if you do nothing to fight against them.
TTekkers (EUW)
: You're really contradicting yourself here. You want LGBTQ+ to be accepted as normal, but also expect people to think the weird shit the parades do is normal when it clearly isn't. You say the parades are for that one community only, which again ostracises that group by excluding everyone else which again won't help the whole issue of it all being accepted as normal.
When it comes to queer politics, you don't get to define what's "normal".
TTekkers (EUW)
: You slammed me for not reading what you wrote. What makes you so special?
My devilishly handsome looks and my winsome smile.
IzzŸ (EUW)
: I headcanon both Jinx and Ekko as trans ;)
I love that headcanon. That is the perfect headcanon.
Pandour (EUNE)
: (Hopefully I remember correctly ....) Riot shamefully bans graves cigar because it offends some muslim countries , so I don't think we will see any LGBTQ stuff. End of topic.
Here, let me just- > "Some religions are against gay marriage so including LGTBQ+ characters in your game is discrimination against them" > > A: There are many parts of every religion that are problematic. That's just plain fact. If a bit of scripture or mythos has queerphobic connotations then you'd best ignore it. Using religion to defend your own bigoted views on the world is cheap, shallow and also a terrible argument. No religion operates under the notion that other human beings shouldn't be respected. There we go, I hope that answers that.
Kusluk (EUW)
: Sera was the worst character in the game by far.
You are so wrong, so so terribly wrong. I am going to make a powerpoint presentation explaining exactly how wrong you are.
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Darkdash

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