: > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > I do not really have anything to say about sheen, but if you remove the cdr from stringer, then 10%cdr should be removed from Nashor's Tooth. That might be enough to kill Azir once again, and have a negative effect to the rest of the champions who actually buy this. Removing 10% CDR from Trinity and Nashor was actually part of the plan. The Tooth is, to my knowledge, only bought by "AP ADC's", if they're even played anymore, and yes, Azir. Even Kayle isn't interested in it anymore. As for the first group - no, they don't need CDR. They're supposed to auto attack, not spam spells. As for Azir - he is a big problem on it's own. Not because he's overpowered or somethin, but has a very, very big learning curve, so it can take even a whole season to properly play him, thus making him rather unpopular, thus making any changes to him being a matter of "life and death" for these players. I'd say a standard Riot treatment would be in place. "Do it, promise to keep an eye on it, maybe even keep the promise and fix it when shit goes down". > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > Protobelt is mostly used by melee assassins such as Diana, Sylas or Kennen, Lissandra and Vladimir. Melee assassins. Kennen, Lissandra, Vladimir. (You can throw Annie in). I hope you see the problem. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > Zhonya's and Banshee's are meant to be situational items much like Spellbinder. Zhonya's active is so good, it's picked into almost any matchup anyway. Maybe not as a rush item, but it's definitely on the "want to buy" list more often than not, and it's been this way even before they put unnecessary CDR on it while buffing it's cost efficiency. That's why I think CDR should be removed from it. It provides enough already. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > Well, it's probably because an enchanter doesn't have means of engage. But... you did say... > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-22T03:52:42.993+0000) >there will be champions better at doing both jobs: engaging the enemy and defending the adc As I said, they shouldn't lose too much of that protection. They'll just have to choose if they want their shit spammable but weak, or strong but with periods of time for enemy to react. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > Taric too, can afford to stay in the backline if he uses his W on the engager and use the stun + ultimate from the backline. I don't disagree, BUT I'm saying that "heal & shield power" Taric is worthless compared to tank, or at least tank-ish Taric. With Locket, Vow, maybe even Zeke, and good health items. Okay, so in the next part, the formatting of numbers in front of semi-paragraphs f***ed up (as they're not displayed correctly in your post, but fine when I quote you o.O), so I had to guess which champion you referred to, based on the original discussion. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 2. To be honest, I still see the veigar/yasuo adc but yeah, marksmen have returned. Sure, SOMETIMES I see them too. Alongside Karthus, and yes, Ziggs. But it's so situational, it might as well be considered out of meta. Again. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 3. Well it's only natural for the meta to shift around. Ah, you've missed the point. That wasn't the question. I asked if her appearance in the jungle threw any standard jungler off from that position - it didn't. Meanwhile, when a midlaner is picked top, and you want to pick a standard toplaner, your best bet is sitting under tower and hoping enemy won't freeze so you can pick up any EXP, at least in most cases. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 13. Well I haven't seen cass top in my games so I don't really know how powerful she is now. If she's at the red side she will never get a blue buff to help her with the mana costs. If she's at the blue side it's unlikely that she gets blue as there is another mage at mid. Plus, she is quite squishy in the start so she can easilly be harassed by **Jayce** or Camille. Using JAYCE as an argument AGAINST midlaners being a problem top... when he is A PROBLEMATIC MIDLANER BROUGHT TOP... is just beyond. It's like saying "If you have a headache, break your leg. You'll be in so much pain, you'll forget about the headache". > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 26. I think the mages would be more than willing to give you yasuo if you give them swain/cass/malzahar. Meh, since he's being shit on in a fair matchup anyway... where do I sign? 2 auto-loses and Malzahar for more than likely win, great deal. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 29. I doubt she was designed to be only a mid laner considering her E. Nevertheless, she has made her return to the mid lane for some reason. Yes, she was a midlaner originally. And also because of her E, which in mid worked like any other shield back then, since you've had ONLY mages there. But since it also blocks CC, she became a support, and the mid version was (almost) completely forgotten. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 31. Thankfully for top laners, they got other beasts to play with akali, such as Darius/Olaf/Nasus/Aatrox/Yorick due to their amazing sustain. And we can keep her. Sure, she's problematic, but currently not so much. Unlike others, who came here and win just because. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 34. I do remember ezreal in the jungle, but the lethality-trinity-dark harvest ezreal. Haven't seen ap ezreal in the jungle yet. I refered to Runeglaive Ezreal MIDLANE. Yeah, jungle item in lane, and he crushed almost any matchup this way. Other lanes also had problems with jungle items. Red Smite Warwick (OLD Warwick) top, Red Smite + Devourer Vayne/Twitch ADC... > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 36. The problem with such picks is that they are created to be picked against assassins in the mid lane, but have found greater success in other lanes. *Looking at you adc heimer* See? That's the proper wording. "Problem in other lanes". And yet they're not balanced around those "other lanes", allowing them to do whatever they want. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 39. Well kass was never meant to be played against ad champions so no wonder he got destroyed at top. I wouldn't say "destroyed"... He was fairly strong, even. But he wasn't enough of a nuisance and didn't meet this "auto-win" standard other midlaners do on top. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 53. As for Vladimir, while I don't think mages want him either, there are picks meant to deal with him. Kled is one of them. Catch him with Q-E and he cannot dodge them with his pool. Vlad will also have a hard time against Nasus with 200+ stacks in lane. One W is all it takes for Nasus to beat vlad. Fiora/Camille/Illaoi/Gnar/Yorick have max hp % damage. Pre-nerf irelia would have been able to kill vlad but now... Nasus has to survive till that 200+ mark (and I'd say you're generous with this amount), Yorick has CURRENT %HP damage - quick corrections. Problem with Vlad is: if he doesn't leave the lane 0/7, he can 1v5. Even if he goes out even from the early game. His homies don't want him either? One more reason to nerf the shit out of him, or at least rework him. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > I do not deny that chaos is brought but as the meta shifts, so do the standard picks. You will always have a counter to a champion. Viktor top couldn't beat Syndra at top. So to deal with midlaner top... you've brought midlaner top... > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > I do not really have a solution to prevent immigration and to be honest I don't think this as a problem, as long as there are reasonable counters. And then you talk about "REASONABLE counters". That's the main problem. We don't have almost any counters in out standard rooster. We have to pick really, REALLY specific shit just to survive and make it 0/2 out of the lane. (I'll answer to the last paragraph in a separate post, cause of character limit -.-)
> [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > But some champions are quite difficult to balance without buffing them to gods or nerfing them to the ground. Such examples are Azir, aurelion and mordekaiser. Mordekaiser became a beast at bot with nautilus/thresh/blitzcrank. Aurelion and azir dealt too much damage. Aurelion didn't get killed by the nerfs but Azir is another story. Another one is Kog'maw who fell out of the meta only because the supports changed. He was strong with both versions of his W and didn't had a significant change in his number to make him weak. Though they did nerf ap kog'maw. As mentioned before, Azir's learning curve makes him close to impossible to balance correctly. If you don't know how to play him, even if he's god tier, you're gonna lose. Sol's been done nicely, I'd say, which is an argument for "yes, it can be done". Mordekaiser's current design has been thrown into trash can at this point and we're just waiting for more info on his next, full scale rework. And I'm glad that Kog fell out... or rather that Ardent Cancer meta ended, since the games back then were literally "who can make their ADC more fed while ignoring the rest of the map". Regarding the "problem if migration" - migration in itself isn't a problem, as said many times already. Problems begin when such champions are allowed to do whatever they want in their new roles. The 430 range gates are just a temporary solution. If affected champions REALLY have nowhere else to go (and they do), I'd say let's change their numbers a bit to have some counterplay when picked toplane, allow them to cross the gate AT HALF RANGE when being in top (with, let's say, minimum of 250, so they have their "rightful" advantage), and if they still win just because, kick them out with a hotfix and repeat the process. When they finally become playable against in toplane, hotfix them to have full range there, see what it does. We don't have other tools than trial and error at this point, but I can assure you - these champions work fairly well in roles they were designed for. The only reason they're picked toplane is because they win lane over 90% of the time just by existing, but because there are games when entirety of their team loses and they can't 1v9, their winrate isn't that abnormal, so Riot doesn't give a shit about their balance. Even if playing against them turns League of Legends into Dyrus Simulator (famous quote from one of his interviews: - Would you like an opportunity to deal more damage? - I'd like the opportunity to play League of Legends.) By the way, if I didn't refer to any part of your post, it's most likely because we've reached agreement on the matter. Or at least it looks like it.
: (From part 1) > Did I lose bot to them? No, can’t say that, because I don’t really play bot or support. I’ve lost games to them, and even when they’ve lost the lane.I’ve also lost a lot of games, because this passive playstyle didn’t work on our side. Sadly, these games exist and I don't think we can do anything for it. It's like the classic 2/12 yasuo who says "ez mid" or "better mid wins" when his team manages to win. > I’m not 100% sure, since I can’t provide any screenshots, but I do recall them saying they want to see more aggresion from such champions when they were adding damage to Janna’s passive. And yes, the mistake they’ve done now and is reffered to as Yuumi, would contradict such statement quite hard. It's not the first time Riot has done the opposite of what they're saying. I remember when they said they wanted to remove a bit of the RNG factor and then introduced to us the elemental drakes and kleptomancy. > No, I’ve never stated it’s about the laning phase. And you don’t even need 18th level to do this. Level 10 (since most of these champions max their „press this and go AFK” ability first, even when it’s not optimal) is enough for Transcendence to kick in, get support item for another 10% and at least a Forbidden Idol for a total of 30%, plus Cosmic Insight and additional few from the stat rune – voila, 40% CDR by spending 1650 gold. Prize? Permanent shield. Ok, they might be able to reach the cdr you mentioned but the hp of the shield is still quite high for level 10. Plus, if they upgrade their heal/shield first, they will not be dealing damage making it pretty hard to kill you as well. I do not really have anything to say about sheen, but if you remove the cdr from stringer, then 10%cdr should be removed from Nashor's Tooth. That might be enough to kill Azir once again, and have a negative effect to the rest of the champions who actually buy this. > Deathcap is being pushed out from the standard mage build in exchange for utility AND defense – Rylai (thankfully no CDR), Protobelt (10%), Zhonya (10%), Banshee (10%), sometimes even Abyssal (10%); the Glacial Augment build, which has GLP (but since ALMOST every mage builds a Lost Chapter item, this 20% is kinda standard) and Twin Shadows (10%); I’ve seen a lot of builds prioritizing Boots of Ludicity (10%) over Sorc Shoes, since other items gave enough AP to compensate for that penetration; I’ve seen WAY TOO MUCH mages SKIPPING Morellonomicon entirely, just to get that 40-45%, even when it wasn’t about penetration and HP anymore, but about them having healer squad (like Vlad + Maokai + double lifesteal ADC + Soraka, oh and jungler was there too) Due to my experience, I disagree that deathcap is being pushed out since some of the items you mentioned are situational. The mages that pick rylai are: Azir (skippable if you want more damage), Cass, Brand, Malzahar, Aurelion Sol, Karthus (skippable), AP Kog'maw, Swain (skippable if you take phase rush with nimbus cloak), Taliyah (no need if you have glacial augment), Rumble, Protobelt is mostly used by melee assassins such as Diana, Sylas or Kennen, Lissandra and Vladimir. Zhonya's and Banshee's are meant to be situational items much like Spellbinder.If the enemy team has no magic damage then you will never see banshee's being bought.Also, the only ones who buy abyssal are battle mages like Galio (who's not being played ap at mid), maybe kassadin, swain and vlad. The glacial augment build brings cdr sooner and provides utility sacrificing damage. Some champions that use this build do not care if they lose damage as they have other means of replenishing it. e.g. Veigar gets ap by his stacks, Ahri deals bonus damage thanks to her E. Taliyah can use this build but I find it inferior to her standard build of luden's + rylai's scepter. The rest of the mages however, prefer going the standard build of Luden's/Archangel into morellonomicon and deathcap, unless there's a threat so they buy a defensive item. Skipping morellonomicon against a healer squad is pretty dumb so I cannot justify that. > Agree, Spear is being build less and less, mostly because of better alternatives. Disagree on not having any defense – grants health, while 20% CDR and it’s passive effect more often than not allow you to use defensive abilities and gap closers more often. My bad, forgot that spear also granted health. However it's passive effect is not guaranteed. A spear of shojin could cast his ultimate and find himself cced so he cannot autoattack. > I’ve NEVER seen an „enchanter” (apart from Taric, who doesn’t really fir in this „class” IMHO; he’s better built tanky, not Redemption + Ardent) engage the enemy. I’ve seen them pinging they’re on the way and then hiding behind ADC at the range of their heal/shield, I’ve seen them running away from 100 HP enemy and spamming their low damage tenacity proof CC, I’ve seen them following 4v2 initiation with ult and making it a 3v2, but I’ve never seen them initiate. Well, it's probably because an enchanter doesn't have means of engage. Janna/Soraka/Sona/Lulu do not have a pull/grab/hook nor a reliable root/stun. They are able to help the one engaging by providing him movement speed and then stay next to the adc/mage to protect them. That's what their supposed to do. They have the ability to deny the enemy assassins from rushing into the backline, kill their target and escape. Janna can use her ulti to knock back the assassin, Soraka can silence, Sona can stun + shield, Lulu can polymorph + shield. Of course, there are picks that can ignore all of that such as Hecarim and Vi who can target the mage/adc and just use their ultimate. Taric too, can afford to stay in the backline if he uses his W on the engager and use the stun + ultimate from the backline. > And again, I didn’t say that ONLY mages are a problem for toplane – they’re the biggest group. I completely agree. I also find mages quite difficult to balance around other lanes without destroying their mid lane. When irelia came mid, they removed the magic damage reduction, forcing her to leave. She's weaker vs rumble and kennen now, but she still can be played. Riot managed to nerf cass without killing her mid lane, and provided some buffs to help her. Her Q got nerfed while she was at bot and got her E buffed for mid. 1. Irelia also went bot for a while, dominating the lane. If I recall correctly, she didn't get nerfed but instead stronger picks went to bot forcing her to leave. 2. To be honest, I still see the veigar/yasuo adc but yeah, marksmen have returned. 3. Well it's only natural for the meta to shift around. 6. I don't think cho has a bad time at mid. Sure, it's a bit difficult to farm, but put a few points to Q and you can easily outrade the enemy laner. 13. Well I haven't seen cass top in my games so I don't really know how powerful she is now. If she's at the red side she will never get a blue buff to help her with the mana costs. If she's at the blue side it's unlikely that she gets blue as there is another mage at mid. Plus, she is quite squishy in the start so she can easilly be harassed by Jayce or Camille. (From part 2) 26. I think the mages would be more than willing to give you yasuo if you give them swain/cass/malzahar. 29. I doubt she was designed to be only a mid laner considering her E. Nevertheless, she has made her return to the mid lane for some reason. 31. Thankfully for top laners, they got other beasts to play with akali, such as Darius/Olaf/Nasus/Aatrox/Yorick due to their amazing sustain. 34. I do remember ezreal in the jungle, but the lethality-trinity-dark harvest ezreal. Haven't seen ap ezreal in the jungle yet. 35. True, that shit was disturbing. 36. The problem with such picks is that they are created to be picked against assassins in the mid lane, but have found greater success in other lanes. *Looking at you adc heimer* 39. Well kass was never meant to be played against ad champions so no wonder he got destroyed at top. 45. Well neeko is supposed to disguise as others so I find it natural not to have a primary lane. Still the bug fix on her W took her w/r down. 52. Boy oh boy, viktor top. Disgustingly overpowered and worked even in mid lane with a few adjustments in the order of the build. Thankfully it got nerfed because it was carrying 1v5 (I remember getting a few pentakills with that build because the enemy couldn't destroy my shield which came up every 2 seconds along with klepto granting me potions to regen my hp/mana). 53. As for Vladimir, while I don't think mages want him either, there are picks meant to deal with him. Kled is one of them. Catch him with Q-E and he cannot dodge them with his pool. Vlad will also have a hard time against Nasus with 200+ stacks in lane. One W is all it takes for Nasus to beat vlad. Fiora/Camille/Illaoi/Gnar/Yorick have max hp % damage. Pre-nerf irelia would have been able to kill vlad but now... > So yeah, agree, not only mages migrate in this game. But when they do, they bring more chaos than balance and make standard picks unplayable I do not deny that chaos is brought but as the meta shifts, so do the standard picks. You will always have a counter to a champion. Viktor top couldn't beat Syndra at top. I do not really have a solution to prevent immigration and to be honest I don't think this as a problem, as long as there are reasonable counters. Picking syndra top to deal with klepto viktor was not a reasonable thing to do in my opinion but somehow worked. If we could avoid that level of disaster, the game would be interesting with it's shifts in the meta without everything collapsing into chaos and despair. But some champions are quite difficult to balance without buffing them to gods or nerfing them to the ground. Such examples are Azir, aurelion and mordekaiser. Mordekaiser became a beast at bot with nautilus/thresh/blitzcrank. Aurelion and azir dealt too much damage. Aurelion didn't get killed by the nerfs but Azir is another story. Another one is Kog'maw who fell out of the meta only because the supports changed. He was strong with both versions of his W and didn't had a significant change in his number to make him weak. Though they did nerf ap kog'maw.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > I do not really have anything to say about sheen, but if you remove the cdr from stringer, then 10%cdr should be removed from Nashor's Tooth. That might be enough to kill Azir once again, and have a negative effect to the rest of the champions who actually buy this. Removing 10% CDR from Trinity and Nashor was actually part of the plan. The Tooth is, to my knowledge, only bought by "AP ADC's", if they're even played anymore, and yes, Azir. Even Kayle isn't interested in it anymore. As for the first group - no, they don't need CDR. They're supposed to auto attack, not spam spells. As for Azir - he is a big problem on it's own. Not because he's overpowered or somethin, but has a very, very big learning curve, so it can take even a whole season to properly play him, thus making him rather unpopular, thus making any changes to him being a matter of "life and death" for these players. I'd say a standard Riot treatment would be in place. "Do it, promise to keep an eye on it, maybe even keep the promise and fix it when shit goes down". > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > Protobelt is mostly used by melee assassins such as Diana, Sylas or Kennen, Lissandra and Vladimir. Melee assassins. Kennen, Lissandra, Vladimir. (You can throw Annie in). I hope you see the problem. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > Zhonya's and Banshee's are meant to be situational items much like Spellbinder. Zhonya's active is so good, it's picked into almost any matchup anyway. Maybe not as a rush item, but it's definitely on the "want to buy" list more often than not, and it's been this way even before they put unnecessary CDR on it while buffing it's cost efficiency. That's why I think CDR should be removed from it. It provides enough already. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > Well, it's probably because an enchanter doesn't have means of engage. But... you did say... > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-22T03:52:42.993+0000) >there will be champions better at doing both jobs: engaging the enemy and defending the adc As I said, they shouldn't lose too much of that protection. They'll just have to choose if they want their shit spammable but weak, or strong but with periods of time for enemy to react. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > Taric too, can afford to stay in the backline if he uses his W on the engager and use the stun + ultimate from the backline. I don't disagree, BUT I'm saying that "heal & shield power" Taric is worthless compared to tank, or at least tank-ish Taric. With Locket, Vow, maybe even Zeke, and good health items. Okay, so in the next part, the formatting of numbers in front of semi-paragraphs f***ed up (as they're not displayed correctly in your post, but fine when I quote you o.O), so I had to guess which champion you referred to, based on the original discussion. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 2. To be honest, I still see the veigar/yasuo adc but yeah, marksmen have returned. Sure, SOMETIMES I see them too. Alongside Karthus, and yes, Ziggs. But it's so situational, it might as well be considered out of meta. Again. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 3. Well it's only natural for the meta to shift around. Ah, you've missed the point. That wasn't the question. I asked if her appearance in the jungle threw any standard jungler off from that position - it didn't. Meanwhile, when a midlaner is picked top, and you want to pick a standard toplaner, your best bet is sitting under tower and hoping enemy won't freeze so you can pick up any EXP, at least in most cases. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 13. Well I haven't seen cass top in my games so I don't really know how powerful she is now. If she's at the red side she will never get a blue buff to help her with the mana costs. If she's at the blue side it's unlikely that she gets blue as there is another mage at mid. Plus, she is quite squishy in the start so she can easilly be harassed by **Jayce** or Camille. Using JAYCE as an argument AGAINST midlaners being a problem top... when he is A PROBLEMATIC MIDLANER BROUGHT TOP... is just beyond. It's like saying "If you have a headache, break your leg. You'll be in so much pain, you'll forget about the headache". > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 26. I think the mages would be more than willing to give you yasuo if you give them swain/cass/malzahar. Meh, since he's being shit on in a fair matchup anyway... where do I sign? 2 auto-loses and Malzahar for more than likely win, great deal. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 29. I doubt she was designed to be only a mid laner considering her E. Nevertheless, she has made her return to the mid lane for some reason. Yes, she was a midlaner originally. And also because of her E, which in mid worked like any other shield back then, since you've had ONLY mages there. But since it also blocks CC, she became a support, and the mid version was (almost) completely forgotten. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 31. Thankfully for top laners, they got other beasts to play with akali, such as Darius/Olaf/Nasus/Aatrox/Yorick due to their amazing sustain. And we can keep her. Sure, she's problematic, but currently not so much. Unlike others, who came here and win just because. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 34. I do remember ezreal in the jungle, but the lethality-trinity-dark harvest ezreal. Haven't seen ap ezreal in the jungle yet. I refered to Runeglaive Ezreal MIDLANE. Yeah, jungle item in lane, and he crushed almost any matchup this way. Other lanes also had problems with jungle items. Red Smite Warwick (OLD Warwick) top, Red Smite + Devourer Vayne/Twitch ADC... > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 36. The problem with such picks is that they are created to be picked against assassins in the mid lane, but have found greater success in other lanes. *Looking at you adc heimer* See? That's the proper wording. "Problem in other lanes". And yet they're not balanced around those "other lanes", allowing them to do whatever they want. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 39. Well kass was never meant to be played against ad champions so no wonder he got destroyed at top. I wouldn't say "destroyed"... He was fairly strong, even. But he wasn't enough of a nuisance and didn't meet this "auto-win" standard other midlaners do on top. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > 53. As for Vladimir, while I don't think mages want him either, there are picks meant to deal with him. Kled is one of them. Catch him with Q-E and he cannot dodge them with his pool. Vlad will also have a hard time against Nasus with 200+ stacks in lane. One W is all it takes for Nasus to beat vlad. Fiora/Camille/Illaoi/Gnar/Yorick have max hp % damage. Pre-nerf irelia would have been able to kill vlad but now... Nasus has to survive till that 200+ mark (and I'd say you're generous with this amount), Yorick has CURRENT %HP damage - quick corrections. Problem with Vlad is: if he doesn't leave the lane 0/7, he can 1v5. Even if he goes out even from the early game. His homies don't want him either? One more reason to nerf the shit out of him, or at least rework him. > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > I do not deny that chaos is brought but as the meta shifts, so do the standard picks. You will always have a counter to a champion. Viktor top couldn't beat Syndra at top. So to deal with midlaner top... you've brought midlaner top... > [{quoted}](name=ChaseDaCookie,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LdEZgyVa,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T22:34:37.064+0000) > I do not really have a solution to prevent immigration and to be honest I don't think this as a problem, as long as there are reasonable counters. And then you talk about "REASONABLE counters". That's the main problem. We don't have almost any counters in out standard rooster. We have to pick really, REALLY specific shit just to survive and make it 0/2 out of the lane. (I'll answer to the last paragraph in a separate post, cause of character limit -.-)
: (part 1) I'll give a flashback from my personal experience too - sure, some of them take spellthief. I've also seen them (mostly Janna's) sitting in bush and waiting for it to fully charge passively, because they're not used to... well, actually playing the game. Did I lose bot to them? No, can’t say that, because I don’t really play bot or support. I’ve lost games to them, and even when they’ve lost the lane. Because in teamfight they’ve pressed their heal/shield twice and R in between, and that was it, our priority target refused to die at this point. I’ve also lost a lot of games, because this passive playstyle didn’t work on our side. Support player was too used to the fact game wins by itself, they had no idea what to do when enemy focused them or where to put a ward when team begs to ward Baron. They were too busy running behind their ADC and crying into their shoulder about the mean team that wants them participate in the game. I’m not 100% sure, since I can’t provide any screenshots, but I do recall them saying they want to see more aggresion from such champions when they were adding damage to Janna’s passive. And yes, the mistake they’ve done now and is reffered to as Yuumi, would contradict such statement quite hard. And the problem isn’t if being active MIGHT lead to more wins, it’s whether not really playing the game SHOULD lead to any wins at all. No, I’ve never stated it’s about the laning phase. And you don’t even need 18th level to do this. Level 10 (since most of these champions max their „press this and go AFK” ability first, even when it’s not optimal) is enough for Transcendence to kick in, get support item for another 10% and at least a Forbidden Idol for a total of 30%, plus Cosmic Insight and additional few from the stat rune – voila, 40% CDR by spending 1650 gold. Prize? Permanent shield. Sure, CDR helps in some cases, but in most it’s a problem, because their cooldowns weren’t designed for a 40% CDR builds, but 20% at most. That’s why Riven seems a bigger problem than few years ago, they haven’t adjusted her cooldowns for that extra 20%. That’s why mages take over other roles; that’s why Jax, even without Shojin’s passive up, became much more mobile than intended, etc. Yes, it did, and I’d say both versions of Sheen work nicely. Although the Stinger family doesn’t have a reason for that CDR. That’s why I suggested it being removed, leaving Tri-Force at 10% from Sheen. Deathcap is being pushed out from the standard mage build in exchange for utility AND defense – Rylai (thankfully no CDR), Protobelt (10%), Zhonya (10%), Banshee (10%), sometimes even Abyssal (10%); the Glacial Augment build, which has GLP (but since ALMOST every mage builds a Lost Chapter item, this 20% is kinda standard) and Twin Shadows (10%); I’ve seen a lot of builds prioritizing Boots of Ludicity (10%) over Sorc Shoes, since other items gave enough AP to compensate for that penetration; I’ve seen WAY TOO MUCH mages SKIPPING Morellonomicon entirely, just to get that 40-45%, even when it wasn’t about penetration and HP anymore, but about them having healer squad (like Vlad + Maokai + double lifesteal ADC + Soraka, oh and jungler was there too), so I guess one of us has met people not representing most of the community. Agree, Spear is being build less and less, mostly because of better alternatives. Disagree on not having any defense – grants health, while 20% CDR and it’s passive effect more often than not allow you to use defensive abilities and gap closers more often. I’ve NEVER seen an „enchanter” (apart from Taric, who doesn’t really fir in this „class” IMHO; he’s better built tanky, not Redemption + Ardent) engage the enemy. I’ve seen them pinging they’re on the way and then hiding behind ADC at the range of their heal/shield, I’ve seen them running away from 100 HP enemy and spamming their low damage tenacity proof CC, I’ve seen them following 4v2 initiation with ult and making it a 3v2, but I’ve never seen them initiate. And they would still be quite effective in protecting ADC or any other damage dealer. There would be a choice of „300 shield every 5 seconds (so, permanent), or 700 shield every 8 seconds?”. I’ve also mentioned before, that Athene has a good idea in how to make these champions winning by not playing actually play the game – if they want their heals/shields do something, they have to deal damage first. Make that a thing, remove „heal & shield power” for hiding behind nexus and chatting on the phone while there’s a League of Legends game in the background and still somehow winning it. And again, I didn’t say that ONLY mages are a problem for toplane – they’re the biggest group. The real problem is, they’re played toplane, sometimes exclusively toplane, yet balanced aroud midlane. Sheer range allows them to harass basically for free, because anytime a standard toplaner tries to retaliate, they just burst a huge chunk of his healthbar at melee range and walk away while he’s stunned/snared/etc. This also happened with Jayce, who „became” toplaner just because midlaners CAN retaliate at range, this also happened with Tahm Kench, who’s a tank, yet still can outdamage anyone in melee for reasons I’ve mentioned in the first post. Sure, not only mages migrated, and not only to toplane. But there always was some way of balancing such migration. 1. As far as I’m concerned, Irelia came back to toplane almost completely. Sometimes used mid, but mostly as a situational pick. 2. As I said, I’m not raelly a botlane person, but to my knowledge, once crit items got reverted (and almost immediately when ADC’s got replaced, while toplane waits for a fix since forever), standard ADC’s came back and made non-standard picks almost extinct in this category. 3. Sure, but how many proper junglers became unplayable just because some Shuriman girl decided to throw stones in their playground? Tanks were still a thing, so was Elise, so was Jarvan, so was Lee Sin… 4. Originally a jungler, with a good ideology for a support. At some point toplaners accepted several junglers (Nautilus, Maokai, Rengar), because they weren’t that different from standard top picks. I mean, what is Naut and Mao if not just a tank that deals magic damage? Sounds quite Mundo/Singed to me. AND they did get balanced around their new toplane versions, unlike current problems. Meanwhile some toplaners also tried jungle out and it worked nicely for them. 5. Everywhere, period. Unpopular support, having hard time in the toplane – completely fell off, having hard time in the jungle – needs his team’s help and acceptance of low gank rate, having hard time in the bot lane (thanks to Ezreal, Draven and aggresive supports; try dealing with Karthus while your Soraka only pit-stops you with heal, like a PASSIVE enchanter she is) – became a situational pick. Still more or less fine mid, as that’s his homeland. 6. Midlane he gets SMACKED by most standard picks, I can imagine picking him against Talon, and Fizz, maybe even Zed and Ekko, but in other situations he’s on the losing side. Top he was designed for, then overbuffed (HP ratio on R) to bring attention to him, then somewhat balanced. As for a jungle Cho – take a look at #4. 7. For a short while, then he got balanced around mid a bit (ironically, they can’t do this when mid invades top) and came back. 8. Yeah, the problem with Camille is that she was designed as a jungler, a new ganking machine, but she had problems with clearing the camps, so they made her toplane, but that didn’t feel well, so they gave her jungle buffs, and that lead to her being too strong ganker, so they nerfed her a bit, so she came back toplane… you get the idea, we’re probably not done with her yet. 9. Not „forced”. Definitely not „forced”. It became an option for him, sure, and he brought uinque playstyle that you have to adjust for when playing against him, sure. Still doesn’t crush the lane just by being there. 10. And he was so good at it, Riot removed his ability to gain passive orbs with Corrupting Potion (and Deathfire Touch, at that moment), basically killing the idea of laning Kayn. 11. True, he WAS a problem in the jungle, he GOT NERFED in the jungle, he is NO LONGER VIABLE in the jungle. Literally same story for top Malzahar. 12. He is one of those toplane picks, that are problematic when certain runes/items get too strong. In his case, to the point where he actually can brawl midlane pick in lane succesfully, thus gets picked midlane. 13. Cass also went top and you could… still can’t do much against her, cause she just vomits her W under your feet and spams E till you die, and since you’re melee, you can’t hit her back. TBH, I haven’t seen her have an impact on botlane, but maybe you haven’t seen her have impact on toplane. 14. As tank supports with good CC became a thing, no wonder he got picked in that role. Same thing happened to Nautilus when Ornn wasn’t in the game yet. And guess what? He did NOT overpower that role. He was one of many viable picks. 15. True, idea behind Galio is complicated. He’s supposed to be that mage who also builds magic resist and gains power from it, but Riot can’t seem to find balance between his AP damage (I think we all remember how that turned out) and MR damage/utility. Point for you, good sir. 16. Annie support was worked with by changes in both her base damage and AP ratio’s, they’ve done a decent job in making her viable both mid and supp, I’d say. As for Lux, she’s still considered a „that guy” pick when supporting. You know, the „autofill from mid, so he’ll just play like it was mid anyway” guy. 17. And his tank option got removed. 18. As I could agree for Olaf, Jarvan is, always was and probably always will be better jungle (even if playable top) and Jax is in the same situation with toplane. But, as I said, junglers and toplaners exchange picks from time to time and it’s probably the only time when Riot balances a non-top pick around top. You can add Trundle, Mundo, Hecarim and Volibear to the list, since they’re in similar situation.
(part 2) 19. There even was a case of Rumble in the jungle (pun intended), and hte conclusion – his build path for that lanes got hit with a nerf hammer. Somethign that didn’t happen to Vlad toplane, Jayce toplane, Swain toplane… I can keep going. 20. And they ARE problems, even mentioned by me in the first post. Well, apart from Sylas, but he’s in a very similar spot to Galio (designed as anti-mage, but prefers to fight melee), just with less team utility, thus not picked for a support. 21. Graves got a huge rework back in the day, which made him completely unviable in lane. As for Quinn, she was designed an ADC, but got too much burst in her kit and switched to other lanes. They did try to push her back botlane, with little succes though. She’s in quite a tight spot right now. 22. He’s a pick similar to Shaco in this role – he either gets a cheezy lvl 2 kill or dies. Meta didn’t shift around him just because he got picked jungle once or twice. I’d even say he’s quite unpopular in this role. 23. And Corki stayed there with ADC changes. And Corki got balanced around midlane since then. Jhin, on the other hand, experienced overdose of assassins while having crippling lack of mobility. He’s in the botlane now. 24. Wukong became jungler because of his above average ganks (invisibility), maybe his toplane persona will see more spotlight with upcoming changes – he’s welcome to come back. As for Urgot, well, I have nothing to add to your statement. 25. No, we shouldn’t try that. He used to be a midlaner with great damage, then Riot shifted his kit to be more tanky, got tried in toplane but didn’t really work out, became a jungler instead and remains there since. Being balanced around jungle. 26. He got bot when ADC’s got „removed” for a moment, now a niche pick there. He got top and doesn’t stand a chance against a standard toplaner in a fair match (so no babysit and enemy has some cognitive functions). Designed for mid, he should stay there. We don’t want him. 27. True. We got promised another rework, let’s see where it leads. 28. He did, and he’s still most usefull as a support. Although he does have potential when laning solo, G2 showed us that, he still drags behind other solo laners in most situations. Now, let me expand your list a bit. 29. Morgana – designed as a midlaner, became support mostly thanks to her Black Shield, considered off-meta pick for midlane for years. Riot tried to put her in the jungle with the W changes, didn’t work out. 30. Leona – designed as a toplane tank, but they didn’t allow her to proc her own passive, support since then. 31. Akali - originally a midlane assassin, got too much sustain in her post-rework kit, and even when it got removed, she doesn’t want to leave toplane. She’s one of the picks I’ve mentioned when saying „we have enough balance problems without midlaners interfering”. 32. Brand was support for a while. I mean, still is, but came back to mid for the most part. 33. Diana changing shifts between mid and jungle, occiasionally paying a visit at top too. 34. Ezreal. Or, more specifically, Runeglaive Ezreal. Got „fixed” quite fast, don’t you agree? 35. Fizz becoming an off-tank for a while, then full tank for a longer while. Took them a while to balance his fish stick. 36. Heimerdinger – one of the MIDlaners, who currently sits toplane and doesn’t want to go away. Doesn’t get balanced around top, just gets allowed to push the lane while being relatively ungankable, since there’s only one way jungler can come from and he can fortify it. 37. Jayce is another MIDlaner, that becomes toplaner, even when nobody wants him here. And the biggest reason is that melee toplaners can’t strike back, cause if they try, they get %HP magic damage (you don’t build much MR against AD champions like Jayce) knocked back and he continues to harass them. 38. Tank Karma was a big thing, thankfully not anymore, since she lost a chunk of her base damage. Still tanky, but can’t carry the game. 39. Kassadin was wieved as a toplaner for a while, and honestly, he wasn’t that much of a problem. Definitely not as much as Heimer, Jayce or Vlad are. 40. Pre-rework Kayle couldn’t decide if she was a mid, top, jungle, carry or support… sounds familiar, right? Now she’s almost exclusively top, where she farms her late game with Kleptomancy, cause that wouldn’t work in other lanes against non-melee picks. She’s relatively fine, though. 41. Kha’Zix was considered the ONLY mid pick for a while and it was a HUGE problem for mid meta. Thankfully that time has passed. I wonder if other lanes get their HUGE problems that ruin standard picks viability fixed? 42. Lissandra was considered a top pick, mostly because - standard mages outrange her - she does have some sustain with ult - builds off-tank items to compensate her range and need of going in - aftershock One of these got balanced, she’s no longer a problem. Annoying, yes, but nothing more. 43. Lulu and her „go everywhere, maybe they have purple tasting tulips” moments. Her design, especially with current amounts of CDR, is unhealthy at best, whether she’s a shieldbot (yes, I’ve changed the term to less offensive), an on-hit machine gun, a burst mage, or 0/6 polymorph bot. 44. Nautilus is now played in midlane. Or at least was, before Aftershock nerf. Damn, I wonder if that was the reason, since mages abused it for several patches and nobody cared? 45. Neeko, although she was designed as is, with no role in mind. They wanted players to figure her out, and she became toplaner who wins because she’s ranged. At least for now, and hopefully not for long. 46. Nidalee was a midlaner long time ago, but they gave her root against jungle monsters. And she was quite strong toplane for a moment too, although she was build AD off-tank there, instead of full AP. Obviously, nerfed, but it took several months. 47. Olaf went mid for a moment, but literally just to counter the Irelia pick. 48. Pantheon lost a lot of top power when they changed minion aggro, now top Pantheon players take him mid for E max burst build. Although, some try him jungle too. 49. Ryze is another Swain-like champion. Either he’s too strong overall and played midlane, or is relatively balanced midlane, thus allowed to wreck havoc toplane. 50. Varus, just like Corki and Jhin, wanted to try midlane for a moment. Then he was back botlane, but as a mage (Attack Speed, but still mage, with Rabadon, Zhonya and other AP items). 51. Vayne, who is and probably always will be a niche pick for toplane, since she ignores tanks only asset of being tank. 52. Viktor top. Boy oh boy, how long did it take to get rif of it? 2 patches? 3? He was doing literally whatever he wanted there. If it happened to botlane, I can guarantee it would be HOTFIXED within days, next patch at worse. 53. Vladimir, just like Jayce, we don’t want him here. Take him somewhere else, literally anywhere, rework factory would be the best. He was designed for mid, with slight tankiness and survivability to survive the harass. Then he got picked top and became the one thing he was supposed to counter – free poking mage taht you can do nothing about since he outdamages you at range. So yeah, agree, not only mages migrate in this game. But when they do, they bring more chaos than balance and make standard picks unplayable, thus KILLING VERSATILITY. Midlaners don’t give a shit about toplane. They go bot, cause they can score 2 takedowns there, not just one, and the neutral monster also looks like a better reward for them. Ranged junglers ATM are: - Graves, who has access top anyway - Kindred, who profits greatly from the smite item - Fiddlesticks, okay, this is a flaw, since changing range cap to let him in would also allow Vladimir, who’s one of the main reasons for the gate to exist - Twitch (out of meta, but let’s roll with it), who takes red first, goes mid and dies/recalls anyway - Elise and Nidalee, who, depending on playstyle, can ignore toplane for a while and put pressure on other lanes, which is usually more profitable decision anyway Teemo wouldn’t technically even be allowed to enter top, and I see it being a problem, since he’s barely picked anywhere else and can be contained relatively easily, especially when compared to other picks mentioned. Thank you for the long post. If you want to continue the discussion, I’m up for it. If you don’t like the solutions presented (which I did mention are kinda controversial), I’d love to see some alternatives.
: > 1. For the lack of better terms, you're gonna have to excuse the harshness of my language - heal/shield-sluts. We all know the type - Janna/Lulu/Soraka/etc. players, who just stand three kilometers behind the actual game, yet still manage to win, because they press one button whenever it's off cooldown. Why is it bad? Both Riot and most of the community is AGAINST passive gameplay. We're playing League of Legends, ffs. A game that's supposed to check dexterity, decision making and teamwork, not if you can set your E to auto-click itself every 5 seconds! To be honest, every Lulu/Janna/Soraka/Sona that I see in my games pick spellthief's as their support item so they are harassing their enemies instead of just healing/shielding the adc. Personal experience aside, you're saying that you have lost to such players, but did you lose because their top/jungle/mid were winning their lanes or because you lost at bot? If you lost at bot 2vs1 then maybe you are the problem and not the heal/shield spammers. It's quite easy to win such a lane by picking Leona into Lulu/Soraka or Blitzcrank into Lulu/Soraka/Janna or Alistar into Lulu/Soraka or if you prefer going ap support pick Lux/Vel\koz. Their heal/shield ability pre-6 is not great and you with your adc can pick a few kills at bot if the support manages to hit the cc. If heal/shield spammer is indeed standing three kilometers behind his/her adc then you can harass the enemy adc or freeze the lane so the enemy adc cannot farm without taking damage. Ward constantly so you don't get ganked and you have basically won the lane. Also, are you sure Riot is completely against passive gameplay? Sure, they did nerf ardent censer when it was meta and it was constantly played in LCS with the people complaining about such boring games, but let's not forget the new champion they just released, Yuumi. Yuumi has the least APM (Actions Per Minute) in the entire game making her the most passive champion since she can just leave the positioning in lane to the adc. In the end there are different gameplay styles. Sure, being active might lead to more wins but sometimes you just want to relax and be the afk support. > The only counterplay against supports of this type, is taking them down before they start spamming their 800 strength shield with 6 seconds of duration and 5.5 seconds cooldown (looking at Janna and Lulu), or at least stunning them for a second on two, to have a chance at killing the damage dealers. You're using level 18 stats for laning phase? Janna's E does have 5 second duration but it decays shortly after the cast with a cooldown of 18 seconds at lvl 1 and 10 seconds at lvl 5. Lulu's E exists for 2.5 seconds with a base cooldown of 10 seconds. Yeah, they can buy cooldown reduction but they don't get 40% cdr fast enough to have it every 6 seconds in lane. > 2. There's too much CDR in the game. Few seasons ago, if you wanted to get even 30% CDR in your itemization, it was more likely than not be a significant blow into your other stats you should focus on (whether it was AP, resistances, health... good AD + CDR build was almost an impossibility). And these were all full items, costing about 3000 gold each (with boots being obvious exception). Nowadays you can get up to 10% CDR per level, runes like Cosmic Insight to increase your cap by another 5%, Ultimate Hunter and Presence of Mind to spam your ultimates, a great deal of CDR items granting almost any statistic you might need, and to top that off, if you plan to overcap your CDR limit, you can pick Transcendece to turn that into more damge. Why is it bad? I'd rather not use too specific examples, but this one's way too obvious - Riven. Yeah, you can get cdr much easier in the game now and that allows players to be more aggressive since they won't have long cooldowns in some abilities. Anyway, to your example: Obviously Riven gets the cdr she needs much more easily now, but so can everyone else. In the past seasons you'd have 40% cdr Riven fighting with another champion who also has 40% cdr. That pretty much makes it more difficult for Riven, rather than help her. > Other champions on the list are: heal/shield-sluts mentioned earlier, Trinity Force users (yeah, it used to have ZERO CDR), mages that HAD TO choose between Morellonomicon and Athene for 20% CDR while now they can get anything that grants AP at random and reach at least 30%, Tryndamere who now has access to 40% CDR with Spear and Essence Reaver (both being quite situational, but still reducing his ult cooldown from 110/100/90 to 66/60/54 seconds, and we all know how unpleasant that ability is), Lucian, Yi, Renekton, Fiora, Jax, etc. with Spear (and occasional Essence Reaver for the first one)... it really goes on, and that's not even considering EVERY tank item with Magic Resist, even though ONLY Spirit Visage has CDR component. Trinity Force also granted ap for a time, so riot figured that cdr would be better than ap taking into accounts the champions that bought Trinity. Mid laners had been asking for 2 years that Riot increases the pool of items to choose from since every game you'd be buying the same items. The only choices for Mana and CDR were Morellonomicon and Athene, as you've said, providing (Morello) 400 mana and 20% cdr or (Athene) Mana regen based on missing mana and 20% cdr. No, they cannot buy any item at random and get cdr. Common items for mages are Void Staff/ Sorc shoes/ Deathcap/ Morellonomicon and none of them gives cdr. So they have two more slots left for mana, cdr and/or survivability. The choices for mana are Luden's/ Archangel/ GLP along with 20% cdr. With Transcendence a mage should have 30% cdr at 10 minutes if everything went smoothly. So that leaves us one spot in the inventory. Sometimes a mage is forced to get zhonya's as a first item in order to survive in lane so he will have 20%cdr at 10 minutes. 20-30 minutes into the game a mage should have 40%-45% cdr. The problem with Spear is that it's costly and doesn't give any defensive stats so it's not rare to see it not being bought. A Jax with Trinity and Titanic Hydra will be scarier than a Jax with Trinity/Spear. > Adjusting CDR and removing "heal & shield power" stat would provide more diveristy in support builds, forcing them to make decisions - do they want CDR from Redemption and Ardent, or do they want more AP for stronger heals and shields (and also some damage), greatly fixing balance problem #1 of this thread. It would definitely fix that problem, as well as kill the enchanters. Why would one pick Janna/Soraka/Lulu there will be champions better at doing both jobs: engaging the enemy and defending the adc. > 3. Toplane has become a wastedump for champions, who "don't fit their roles ANYMORE". Or rather "were too good in roles they were designed for, got balanced for that positions, and someone noticed they still shit on toplaners most of the time". Yeah if only top lane was the only lane where that has happened. So far we've had (as far as I recall): 1. Irelia from top going to mid/bot. 2. Ziggs moving from mid to bot. 3. Taliyah going for an adventure in jungle. 4. Nautilus swapping roles as a top laner or a support or a jungler. 5. Karthus going everywhere except support. 6. Cho'gath trying to eat everything at top/mid/jungle. 7. Aatrox invading mid from top. 8. Camille went to execute every beast in jungle, making the original jungler stay at top. 9. Rengar (the original jungler) was forced to go top. 10. Kayn also wanted to try top and mid to get his form faster. 11. Malzahar went in the jungle and top to feed his pets. 12. GP still cannot choose a lane between mid/top. 13. Cass went bot. 14. Ornn decided to become a support. 15. Galio had (and still has) an identity crisis so he's currently being played Top/Mid/Support. 16. Annie and Lux are swapping between support and mid. 17. Ekko decided to become a tank and then a jungler. 18. Jax/Jarvan/Olaf keep changing shifts at jungle/top. 19. Rumble went to mid for a while. 20. Tahm/Sylas/Swain haven't decided to stay in a single lane. 21. Graves/Quinn went through every lane except support. 22. Twitch seems to like jungle. 23. Corki and jhin wanted to give mid a try. 24. Urgot and wukong left top for mid/jungle, though urgot went back. 25. Gragas hasn't been an adc yet so we should try that. 26. Yasuo goes bot/mid/top. 27. Only god knows where mordekaiser is supposed to be. 28. Pyke gave every role a shot. So as you can see, not only mages are the immigrants in this game. > It kills versatility. So by having more picks, you have less picks? Is it like the cheese? You know, the more cheese you have, the more holes it has, so you have less cheese. > Gates that would prevent any champion with range over 430 units from entering the lane. Barrier would break once the average level of all players becomes 6, and would allow enter to ranged champions who have complete Smite item (not necessarily enchanted, just blue/red smite). That would simply kill all the roaming from ranged champions. I suppose ranged mid laners will get access granted at lvl 6 and not with a smite. But who would play any ranged champion in the jungle after that. Most of the melee champions are better at lvl 6 than the ranged champions. Lane bullies would exist in every game so expect lanes to go either with 3 kills difference or 40 cs difference. A Teemo will have the time of his life against nasus with no one to help him. Simply get control of the lane, freeze it and then wait, while the junglers can do nothing but farm.
(part 1) I'll give a flashback from my personal experience too - sure, some of them take spellthief. I've also seen them (mostly Janna's) sitting in bush and waiting for it to fully charge passively, because they're not used to... well, actually playing the game. Did I lose bot to them? No, can’t say that, because I don’t really play bot or support. I’ve lost games to them, and even when they’ve lost the lane. Because in teamfight they’ve pressed their heal/shield twice and R in between, and that was it, our priority target refused to die at this point. I’ve also lost a lot of games, because this passive playstyle didn’t work on our side. Support player was too used to the fact game wins by itself, they had no idea what to do when enemy focused them or where to put a ward when team begs to ward Baron. They were too busy running behind their ADC and crying into their shoulder about the mean team that wants them participate in the game. I’m not 100% sure, since I can’t provide any screenshots, but I do recall them saying they want to see more aggresion from such champions when they were adding damage to Janna’s passive. And yes, the mistake they’ve done now and is reffered to as Yuumi, would contradict such statement quite hard. And the problem isn’t if being active MIGHT lead to more wins, it’s whether not really playing the game SHOULD lead to any wins at all. No, I’ve never stated it’s about the laning phase. And you don’t even need 18th level to do this. Level 10 (since most of these champions max their „press this and go AFK” ability first, even when it’s not optimal) is enough for Transcendence to kick in, get support item for another 10% and at least a Forbidden Idol for a total of 30%, plus Cosmic Insight and additional few from the stat rune – voila, 40% CDR by spending 1650 gold. Prize? Permanent shield. Sure, CDR helps in some cases, but in most it’s a problem, because their cooldowns weren’t designed for a 40% CDR builds, but 20% at most. That’s why Riven seems a bigger problem than few years ago, they haven’t adjusted her cooldowns for that extra 20%. That’s why mages take over other roles; that’s why Jax, even without Shojin’s passive up, became much more mobile than intended, etc. Yes, it did, and I’d say both versions of Sheen work nicely. Although the Stinger family doesn’t have a reason for that CDR. That’s why I suggested it being removed, leaving Tri-Force at 10% from Sheen. Deathcap is being pushed out from the standard mage build in exchange for utility AND defense – Rylai (thankfully no CDR), Protobelt (10%), Zhonya (10%), Banshee (10%), sometimes even Abyssal (10%); the Glacial Augment build, which has GLP (but since ALMOST every mage builds a Lost Chapter item, this 20% is kinda standard) and Twin Shadows (10%); I’ve seen a lot of builds prioritizing Boots of Ludicity (10%) over Sorc Shoes, since other items gave enough AP to compensate for that penetration; I’ve seen WAY TOO MUCH mages SKIPPING Morellonomicon entirely, just to get that 40-45%, even when it wasn’t about penetration and HP anymore, but about them having healer squad (like Vlad + Maokai + double lifesteal ADC + Soraka, oh and jungler was there too), so I guess one of us has met people not representing most of the community. Agree, Spear is being build less and less, mostly because of better alternatives. Disagree on not having any defense – grants health, while 20% CDR and it’s passive effect more often than not allow you to use defensive abilities and gap closers more often. I’ve NEVER seen an „enchanter” (apart from Taric, who doesn’t really fir in this „class” IMHO; he’s better built tanky, not Redemption + Ardent) engage the enemy. I’ve seen them pinging they’re on the way and then hiding behind ADC at the range of their heal/shield, I’ve seen them running away from 100 HP enemy and spamming their low damage tenacity proof CC, I’ve seen them following 4v2 initiation with ult and making it a 3v2, but I’ve never seen them initiate. And they would still be quite effective in protecting ADC or any other damage dealer. There would be a choice of „300 shield every 5 seconds (so, permanent), or 700 shield every 8 seconds?”. I’ve also mentioned before, that Athene has a good idea in how to make these champions winning by not playing actually play the game – if they want their heals/shields do something, they have to deal damage first. Make that a thing, remove „heal & shield power” for hiding behind nexus and chatting on the phone while there’s a League of Legends game in the background and still somehow winning it. And again, I didn’t say that ONLY mages are a problem for toplane – they’re the biggest group. The real problem is, they’re played toplane, sometimes exclusively toplane, yet balanced aroud midlane. Sheer range allows them to harass basically for free, because anytime a standard toplaner tries to retaliate, they just burst a huge chunk of his healthbar at melee range and walk away while he’s stunned/snared/etc. This also happened with Jayce, who „became” toplaner just because midlaners CAN retaliate at range, this also happened with Tahm Kench, who’s a tank, yet still can outdamage anyone in melee for reasons I’ve mentioned in the first post. Sure, not only mages migrated, and not only to toplane. But there always was some way of balancing such migration. 1. As far as I’m concerned, Irelia came back to toplane almost completely. Sometimes used mid, but mostly as a situational pick. 2. As I said, I’m not raelly a botlane person, but to my knowledge, once crit items got reverted (and almost immediately when ADC’s got replaced, while toplane waits for a fix since forever), standard ADC’s came back and made non-standard picks almost extinct in this category. 3. Sure, but how many proper junglers became unplayable just because some Shuriman girl decided to throw stones in their playground? Tanks were still a thing, so was Elise, so was Jarvan, so was Lee Sin… 4. Originally a jungler, with a good ideology for a support. At some point toplaners accepted several junglers (Nautilus, Maokai, Rengar), because they weren’t that different from standard top picks. I mean, what is Naut and Mao if not just a tank that deals magic damage? Sounds quite Mundo/Singed to me. AND they did get balanced around their new toplane versions, unlike current problems. Meanwhile some toplaners also tried jungle out and it worked nicely for them. 5. Everywhere, period. Unpopular support, having hard time in the toplane – completely fell off, having hard time in the jungle – needs his team’s help and acceptance of low gank rate, having hard time in the bot lane (thanks to Ezreal, Draven and aggresive supports; try dealing with Karthus while your Soraka only pit-stops you with heal, like a PASSIVE enchanter she is) – became a situational pick. Still more or less fine mid, as that’s his homeland. 6. Midlane he gets SMACKED by most standard picks, I can imagine picking him against Talon, and Fizz, maybe even Zed and Ekko, but in other situations he’s on the losing side. Top he was designed for, then overbuffed (HP ratio on R) to bring attention to him, then somewhat balanced. As for a jungle Cho – take a look at #4. 7. For a short while, then he got balanced around mid a bit (ironically, they can’t do this when mid invades top) and came back. 8. Yeah, the problem with Camille is that she was designed as a jungler, a new ganking machine, but she had problems with clearing the camps, so they made her toplane, but that didn’t feel well, so they gave her jungle buffs, and that lead to her being too strong ganker, so they nerfed her a bit, so she came back toplane… you get the idea, we’re probably not done with her yet. 9. Not „forced”. Definitely not „forced”. It became an option for him, sure, and he brought uinque playstyle that you have to adjust for when playing against him, sure. Still doesn’t crush the lane just by being there. 10. And he was so good at it, Riot removed his ability to gain passive orbs with Corrupting Potion (and Deathfire Touch, at that moment), basically killing the idea of laning Kayn. 11. True, he WAS a problem in the jungle, he GOT NERFED in the jungle, he is NO LONGER VIABLE in the jungle. Literally same story for top Malzahar. 12. He is one of those toplane picks, that are problematic when certain runes/items get too strong. In his case, to the point where he actually can brawl midlane pick in lane succesfully, thus gets picked midlane. 13. Cass also went top and you could… still can’t do much against her, cause she just vomits her W under your feet and spams E till you die, and since you’re melee, you can’t hit her back. TBH, I haven’t seen her have an impact on botlane, but maybe you haven’t seen her have impact on toplane. 14. As tank supports with good CC became a thing, no wonder he got picked in that role. Same thing happened to Nautilus when Ornn wasn’t in the game yet. And guess what? He did NOT overpower that role. He was one of many viable picks. 15. True, idea behind Galio is complicated. He’s supposed to be that mage who also builds magic resist and gains power from it, but Riot can’t seem to find balance between his AP damage (I think we all remember how that turned out) and MR damage/utility. Point for you, good sir. 16. Annie support was worked with by changes in both her base damage and AP ratio’s, they’ve done a decent job in making her viable both mid and supp, I’d say. As for Lux, she’s still considered a „that guy” pick when supporting. You know, the „autofill from mid, so he’ll just play like it was mid anyway” guy. 17. And his tank option got removed. 18. As I could agree for Olaf, Jarvan is, always was and probably always will be better jungle (even if playable top) and Jax is in the same situation with toplane. But, as I said, junglers and toplaners exchange picks from time to time and it’s probably the only time when Riot balances a non-top pick around top. You can add Trundle, Mundo, Hecarim and Volibear to the list, since they’re in similar situation.
: Hashinshin isn't a voice for toplaners. He literally complains about the whole class of a champion he dies to. Yet I see him one-shotting a mage with a Camille, and still he has the balls to cry about how broken mages are. I don't want to use autism as an insult, but I can clearly see Hashinshin is suffering from it, according to the weird facial gestures he makes and how battling other classes than the ones he plays heavily affect his mood. He raged hard about them and it created a fanbase for him, a fanbase full of toplaners who share the same opinions. I liked Hashinshin very much too, but right now he is going too far. I agree with the fact that cooldown reduction is too easily accessible, but reducing AP power on mage items is a clear sign Hashinshin is a narcissistic toplaner. I enjoy watching Trick2g or Sirhcez or Professor Akali or whoever the fck out there streaming for league way more now. A video of Hashinshin is basically a full 20 minute rant about a certain class except the one he plays. I even wrote a comment in one of his latest videos, saying ''The fact that hashinshin is complaining about each class (except what he plays) from time to time and crying that bruisers are too weak, makes me worried that Riot will someday listen to this *****...'' I censored the last word because I don't want to flame here. I agree some champs are a terrible and highly annoying design, like Evelynn imo. But I do not think a certain class, like mages, is broken. In fact, I played against 5 mages with cc on every single one of them in an aram game (Lux, Xerath, Zilean and two others I can't remember). I played Amumu, I took the right runes, built MR and tenacity and the right items against them. I had a normal team (1 adc, 1 or 2 mages and another tank) We lost early game very hard, but stomped mid and late game and we won. It is a perfect example that mages aren't overpowered. But within the right hands of a very good player, every class can look overpowered.
Hashinshin may not be the unified voice of toplaners, but whom else do they have? Personally I haven't seen him even play Camille, but maybe I've missed that replay on YouTube, as I rarely watch any stream. And I don't enjoy Trick as I find him to be way too aggresive and wanting to BM more than to play the game itself. Back to Hash, though - he did complain about Jax, Fiora, Olaf, Darius... all the picks he's recognized for. And no, I don't mean about how weak they are - that happened too, obviously, but he did complain about how overpowered they were when such moment happened, and it wasn't even because he lost to them in-game, so I personally feel like your argument's debunked. I'm not saying mages are broken and overpower the game (although they are being pushed more and more in every role). I'm saying that toplane currently has problem with non-toplane champions, most of them being midlaners, and since midlane is the lane of mages, you do the math.
Rioter Comments
Ritmann (EUW)
: Discussion: What is the worst gamer behavior in your opinion?
The overtryhards that will do anything to make one person see more shades of gray than the actual game. Imagine you go for a normal game with your friends. You queue up, you go through bans and picks (since blind pick sucks balls)... and you get a bugsplat during the loading screen. You think it's ok, you're telling the team you'll be back in a flash on skype/teamspeak/discord/whatever and you try to reconnect ASAP. But by the time you come back , it's 3rd minute and the enemy laner has some level advantage. Shit happened, so you try to farm safely and basically not die, since you're already behind. This is where the overtryhard strikes. He's most likely a jungler (but not always), and his life's job is to camp the shit out of your lane. Who cares that the rest of his team is behind, he's gonna show you, the bug-splat-player, that it is possible to have 40 deaths in 25 minutes, because it's fun and interactive to be dead for 60% of the game time. During a NORMAL game. Where there is no real pressure to win, apart from some IP. It's like RAMMING a 30-inch d#ldo into an a##hole that's already being R#PED by 4 20-inch black c##ks, but yeah. People still tend to do that, and apparently they have fun while so -.- Sady, they're also ruining the fun for at least 5 other players, and that's not what NORMAL games are about.
: Owner off a club, yet no club visible on clubs tab.
I had this problem too. Just write a ticket to the support, they can take care of this issue.
Husker (EUW)
: Normal Draft & Ranked in 2017
You once already took away something we, Solo based players, loved. You promised to give it back in a week time, the week turned into a month, then you said it won't ever come back. After some harsh words were said, you promised to bring it back again. It took you a whole season to do so. It was Solo Queue. Don't make the same mistake again. For players who value sportsmanship in LoL, this few extra minutes in queue don't really matter. If you remove Normal Draft, what choices of games will we have? - Flex Queue - playable with at least 2 friends, but solo it will still have the problems of Dynamic Queue, which is the advantage of communication, player knowledge and trust premades hold against us. On top of that, it's ranked mode, and that means it's supposed to be taken seriously with our best picks. - Solo Queue - ranked mode, where we're supposed to compete alone (or with one friend who shares simialr rank), using champions and builds we know and are ready to bet our ranks on them. - ARAM - where you get a random champion with random teamcomp and play against another random team. - Blind Pick - here are 2 options. Players might go with 4-5 premade and play somewhat a normal game, where they can pick a nice comp and all... Or you're teamed up with the Blind "Players". Then there's only up to 10% chance (and that's VERY favourable odds) that you'll get your role (cause call order), your champ (cause instalock), classic teamcomp (cause raging kids who didn't get their role) and will be able to play against a normal team (that excludes **all of the "above" in the enemy team**, **mirrors**, **for-fun-trolls** (like AP Jarvan or Shaco support) **that you won't see in Rankeds** above Gold V and **usage of champs with high ban ratio on Rankeds**). - Featured - not always Summoner's Rift. And even if, there's stuff that's way different from classic mode (80% CDR, enemy picking shit comp for you, 5 identical champs on one side...). So, here's my question. Where, as a SOLO prefering player, am I supposed to train for ranked games, huh? Blind is out of question, since most of the games won't match the criteria, so I guess I'm supposed to practice against the AI if you remove Draft. Or maybe that's what the sandbox was made for, to train real-life matchups, but with no possibility to add even a bot at this point?
Rayz019 (EUNE)
: Actually, I think Panth is someone it's really good on, the hp, the cdr, his E stacks BC well.
Of course it may be good (idk, I haven't played for a month and I won't be able for another one), but I'm saying that there's a nerf about flat penetration which is necessary to melt ADC's, so that makes {{item:3142}} necessary in my EQ now. The only way to put BC back is removing {{item:3035}} , I think, cause they share similar percentage when it comes to killing tanks. Yet I still have to think about if it's going to be worth. Also, now that I think of this change... it might be because of {{champion:6}} . Players started to use him and {{item:3071}} is really a CORE item when playing him. He also lacks MS a lot, so putting {{item:3044}} in {{item:3071}} might be a way Riot says "After all this years you revived Urgot. Here's something that'll make you play him once he's been noticed."
Rayz019 (EUNE)
: New Black Cleaver, Indirect nerf to assassins?
I feel like it's a nerf for my main ({{champion:80}} ) because it took away flat armor penetration which was great against ADC's. Sure, it grants MS instead but our beloved baker has the highest base speed in the game. It's kinda sad, cause {{item:3071}} stacked more than well with his E. Guess I'll switch to {{item:3142}} now, for that flat penetration, cause {{item:3035}} 's percentage is less effective against squishies that don't have much armor :(
Aingaz (EUW)
: dealing with %HP dmg ?
There are 3 items that work against Vayne better than the others - {{item:3110}} {{item:3143}} , which reduce her AS; {{item:3075}} , which replies some damage (skipping boring math - you'd need 90% lifesteal and 100% armor penetration to break through {{item:3075}} ). I know it doesn't work on her W, but it still can hurt her.
Aingaz (EUW)
: Riven or Pantheon
As a Pantheon main I have to say something. He counters most of the champs (including Riven), has great poke, trades well even with just AA and is an extreme snowballer. His ult allows him not only to roam early, but also fits most of team comps in the mid-late phase. There are many different ways of playing him (assassin, classic bruiser and tank; each of this options has suboptions, etc.) and it doesn't take long to understand him. The hardest mechanic is tracking his passive, which combined with his W works very effectivelly against AA resets (for example Nasus, who can't farm his Q if you're in lane and you know how to play). As for Riven, I can't say much. I've played her... five times in my career? Something about that, and I still remember how I got quadra while going full tank - effect of playing against duo top and very bored mid, who visited me every two minutes. I'm not saying that she's broken (I strongly believe there's no such thing as "broken champ", just bronzes who play against them), but I think that this game might be a proof that she has some aces up her sleeve and a good player can perform some magic if he spends some time to understand her mechanics.

John Fighterman

Level 235 (EUNE)
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