: I was playing Yi few days ago and I realized how ugly his base skin was, and I thought that he should get reworked. But I was only thinking about the visual aspect. I think that he could be reworked but its definitely not a priority, other champions like {{champion:32}}{{champion:20}} {{champion:266}} feels way more outdated. For Yi I honnestly think that he fulfill his "role". He is the kind of champion that you want to pick when you start playing the game, to learn how to jungle, kind of like a more offensive Warwick,basically a champ for beginners, but not only as he can be played till Platinum and still be efficient. Also I know some Yi main, and you probably know Cowsep, that managed to get Diamond on the KR server just by playing Yi, or Rat IRL abusing him to climb and boost accounts to Master. So that probably means he can be viable in higher elo, you just need to change your playstyle. As mentioned by Cowsep, the way you play Yi in Gold and Diamond is different, in Diamond you want to split push, put presssure, and then come and clean up the mess after a teamfight. You did a really good job for your rework, the abilities make sens, but I am scared that he becomes a bit too skilled for the average players. I think Riot is releasing more champions that takes more time to master and even the reworks feel harder to play (like the new irelia) which is in theory good. But we also need a few champions in the game for begginers, champions like Annie, Warwick, Yi, ... Also your kit seem a bit overpowered, since you give him everything: True dammage, 3 abilities to dodge spells, Move speed, healing. His W seem like Fiora's W, and I think it would be too strong. This is just my personal opinion on the topic, you did a good job anyway, taking time to write this and rethink all his abilities so wp to you. Khou3azrine {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
Thanks for the reply! Yea, i suppose, in diamond+ he's more focused on pressure than fighting. Playing in gold i start to forget that stuff( About the champions for beginners, Warwick and Xin, both got quite good reworks yet they still are not that hard to play for new players. Even without them there are plenty of champions that are forgiving to newbie's mistakes, Garen, for example. And a few adcs too. Yi in low-level beginner game either will fail or will ruin everyone's game. And let's face it - nowadays everyone's familiar with MOBA genre and if one isn't, he'll prolly learn his way through. About the overpowering - maybe, i don't argue. Though he actually already has the biggest true damage output already and quite a healing) Not mentioning the movespeed. Fiora's W is still stronger in terms of defence, since she blocks both damage and CC. And speaking of healing, her ultimate healing, while hard to achieve, is quite strong. Speaking of 3 dodges, don't forget you can use only one at a time, unless in ult, which is relatively short, so i think it wouldn't hit much. But overall i was mostly focusing on the idea of stacks him and the way i'd love to see the abilities reworked. I don't claim to balance him right away)
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Rioter Comments
Kazzius (EUW)
: There's a simpler and much more obvious way of tying Velly's gameplay to his theme. What does research collect? Knowledge. What's another word for knowledge? Experience. That's right: Vel'Koz could use his experience AS A RESOURCE, representing the direct application of the knowledge he's collected. It would also have some interesting gameplay interactions. I haven't thought this idea through completely but I think it would be interesting if his passive was something like 'gain experience faster' and then his abilities have some way of spending EXP for added bonuses, perhaps the ones mentioned in the OP. Then you have to make the risk/reward decision: 'Do I play passively and allow my level advantage to accumulate or do I play aggressively and risk being under-levelled?' You could even get into situations where you spend so much EXP at once that you *lose* a level, including the ability that you last levelled up. It would be very weird to test and balance, but considering that Riot has recently released Ivern, a jungling champion that plays completely unlike any other jungler out there, I think it's safe to say that they're at least somewhat open to strange new ideas.
Back in old times we thought Jayce without ult was strange :D It's been a long way since. Zilean has EXP interaction, though i like your idea, Vel would utilize it much better that time-walking old man. Though lategame would be a problem since everyone is reaching the cap and you're gonna stay either on perma-17 or forget about special abilities. Well, or maybe he can get a small EXP pool once he gets level 18 which will let him play. I like it really. If to think about passive stacking i suggested, it needs to be balanced hard so both Vel and enemies wouldn't benefit from it stacking or decaying much. EXP isn't bound to someone specific so you don't need to chase people all game long but mind your own business. Jungle Vel would be really brutal that way :D
Just Wolf (EUW)
: idk but research means learning about something basicly knowinw the champion biology in league , so true dmg makes a lot of sense to attack their biggest weakness. and well gaining extra abilities i would say it should depend on champ type.
True damage is logical that way but way too simple. From other hand, extra abilities depending on champion or champion role - too complicated. Vel could use something between it.
IndigoFenix (EUNE)
: I like this idea. Characters who play in a way that fits with their lore are always cool. To be honest, I think Vel would make the most sense as a champ with a continuously increasing ability, like Veigar and Nasus. If he's all about research, he should be weak at the beginning of the game and strong at the end, particularly against enemies he has had a long time to "examine". Maybe his stacks against an enemy champ can raise permanently, but slowly, similar to Veigar but only affecting his damage on that.particular enemy.
When talking about stack decreasing, i kept in mind that knowledge gets old and useless while enemy is out of his sight. That could explain decreasing it. I thought about Veigar-like stacking too but decided it would be almost same and not that original)
Rioter Comments
Perilum (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ler da Rim,realm=EUNE,application-id=ln3nNJrX,discussion-id=Qa6AtYO1,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-25T14:39:14.524+0000) > > IE is usually achieved at the end of laning phase, and before it there is no point in maxing Q because you don't simply need that AA-boost, nor AS, nor dmg from flurry. Volley can help greatly at farming and and trading/poking both. After IE purchase you start relying on AAs much more and Volley becomes just a part of chasing/escaping mechanism. My first item is usually BFS, when I come back I have so much pressure on the lane with Q up, that I can secure many kills. Well i'm still 29, but Volley usually does no real damage.
I'm sorry, but what does 29 mean here? Early BFS isn't always an option because Ashe can easily be zoned from farm by half of bot compilations. However, again, everyone plays his own style, as for me, i rush Avarice and totally rely on her lategame 300% dmg. Volley, by the way, has 1.0 AD scale so it will still be strong early with BFS. Before getting IE it will anyway deal more damage than your AA.
Perilum (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ler da Rim,realm=EUNE,application-id=ln3nNJrX,discussion-id=Qa6AtYO1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-06-25T13:28:46.669+0000) > > Volley is her main damage on lane. It loses its damage potential far in middle-late. > > Really? Did not try this yet but something tells me that there are some underwater rocks about it... However thanks for tip, i'll try it. Well, Volley is just to farm. You want the passive up on all minions, so you can crit them to death. It's a poke on champs. Nothing more. The main damage comes from a early pressure due IE and a well placed Q.
IE is usually achieved at the end of laning phase, and before it there is no point in maxing Q because you don't simply need that AA-boost, nor AS, nor dmg from flurry. Volley can help greatly at farming and and trading/poking both. After IE purchase you start relying on AAs much more and Volley becomes just a part of chasing/escaping mechanism.
Emillie (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ler da Rim,realm=EUNE,application-id=ln3nNJrX,discussion-id=Qa6AtYO1,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-24T21:43:07.524+0000) > And i first time hear about increasing the slow % with flurry. What do you mean? The slow will be the same. From LoL wiki: "ACTIVE: Ashe consumes her current Focus stacks and gains bonus attack speed and increases Frost Shot's Slow strength by 20% for 4 seconds."
Uhm... I forgot of that, but however, it applies not while using flurry, but while using Q overall, like the attack speed boost. So you don't need to stack up your Focus for it.
Perilum (EUW)
: Volley is a support spell. And if you want to use the Q on a tower, target a minion first. No problems here officer.
Volley is her main damage on lane. It loses its damage potential far in middle-late. > And if you want to use the Q on a tower, target a minion first. No problems here officer. Really? Did not try this yet but something tells me that there are some underwater rocks about it... However thanks for tip, i'll try it.
: It maybe was beatiful for you if you see her shredding the enemy tower. But it's plain out overpowered if she does this while you get to the tower and already were halfway between the t1 and t2 turrets. Ashe nerfs were fine. She needed the rework, she needed the volley nerf (Tear Ashe as support = gg, permaslow without using mana AND volleying the enemy to death).
Nah, by beautiful i was meaning the flurry animation and specific damage indicator. For balance purposes it just would be the same damage if she just used common Q without Volley. And i agree, she needed nerfs, i just think that Riots could do this a bit more accurate, without inserting additional rules to her kit.
Emillie (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ler da Rim,realm=EUNE,application-id=ln3nNJrX,discussion-id=Qa6AtYO1,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-24T17:33:28.384+0000) > > She never was a good early laner. Her main goal there is to survive and get as much gold as possible. Basically she has to farm and farm till she gets the Infinity Edge, and when that happens you already have W scaled to lvl 4-5 (if you max it first). Do not compare it to silver bolts, they are applying on a target, while Focus - on yourself. Another problem with bolts that you have to attack exact same unit 3 times and can't touch others. With Focus you can just keep your stacks just hitting a creep once every 3-4 seconds, that's not much or hard, that even won't push your lane. > > I can also suggest removing half or third part of stacks each 5 seconds of not-attacking, it will give her a chance to keep a few all the time except for a case when she consumes them for Q. Really? Pre-rework Ashe had a beastly early game. Huge lane bully with volley and 600 range. At level 1 when entering lane you could do a crit+volley+auto on the enemy ADC and you would instantly win lane (assuming it stayed 2v2). Later on, with a few kills + E passive gold you could go assassin mode and buy ie+shiv, with ult+passive+auto+volley the enemy ADC would be at 10-20% hp. Also Ashe still has a permaslow, and now it's manaless, and flurry increases the slow %. I think they don't want people to instantly get max stacks with a W because that would make her the most obnoxious champion.
Her long-charging passive and pretty low mobility were screwing her up. She couldn't join trades because mostly anyone else had good trading mechanics (and close-gaps so her range wasn't that useful most of the lane time), not just a spell with 10+ seconds cd. However, i can't argue about her early game because i was (and am) always relying on her lategame potential with crit runes. And i first time hear about increasing the slow % with flurry. What do you mean? The slow will be the same.
Emillie (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ler da Rim,realm=EUNE,application-id=ln3nNJrX,discussion-id=Qa6AtYO1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-24T16:10:31.593+0000) > > Her new kit is built on the fact that she gets a stack of Focus for every foe slowed down with her passive. Volley and ult apply the passive to all enemies hit, not just one, so why the heck she can't get her stacks for it? That limiting for 1 stack per spell is just additional condition, which ruins the beaty of her new system. > Volley, by the way, was part of this new system. Can't disagree that it has plenty of uses, but the old Volley before rework has it all aswell, it just could be avoided a bit easier because of smaller amount of projectiles. The rework on this spell was pointed on interacting with her new passive and now Riots remove that interaction, so why can't they just give us back the old Volley? > > It would be ok if there was no other way to nerf her, but as i said, why not just increase the stacks limit so she will need to hit both super-easy-hit spell and AA to get her flurry? I think that would make her early game a bit too bad. Needing 10 autos to proc flurry is a lot, I mean sometimes it's even hard to proc silver bolts, and that's 3 autos. Early game volley has like 16s cd or something, she would be pretty useless in lane.
She never was a good early laner. Her main goal there is to survive and get as much gold as possible. Basically she has to farm and farm till she gets the Infinity Edge, and when that happens you already have W scaled to lvl 4-5 (if you max it first). Do not compare it to silver bolts, they are applying on a target, while Focus - on yourself. Another problem with bolts that you have to attack exact same unit 3 times and can't touch others. With Focus you can just keep your stacks just hitting a creep once every 3-4 seconds, that's not much or hard, that even won't push your lane. I can also suggest removing half or third part of stacks each 5 seconds of not-attacking, it will give her a chance to keep a few all the time except for a case when she consumes them for Q.
Emillie (EUW)
: Volley is meant to be a poking tool, it's super easy to hit, has no real cooldown, it's an aoe slow with damage, I think that gives it enough use.
Her new kit is built on the fact that she gets a stack of Focus for every foe slowed down with her passive. Volley and ult apply the passive to all enemies hit, not just one, so why the heck she can't get her stacks for it? That limiting for 1 stack per spell is just additional condition, which ruins the beaty of her new system. Volley, by the way, was part of this new system. Can't disagree that it has plenty of uses, but the old Volley before rework has it all aswell, it just could be avoided a bit easier because of smaller amount of projectiles. The rework on this spell was pointed on interacting with her new passive and now Riots remove that interaction, so why can't they just give us back the old Volley? It would be ok if there was no other way to nerf her, but as i said, why not just increase the stacks limit so she will need to hit both super-easy-hit spell and AA to get her flurry?
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Ler da Rim

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