: Then get better,improve. If you want people to stop smurfing,then blame Riot,not the people that smurf. The ladder is so %%%%ed up right now it's not enjoyable for "higher "elo players to play the game on their respective mains,cause it %%%%ing sucks. Ladder is broken,I'll stop smurfing when they fix it. I had to dodge 2 games in a row yesterday. First one autofill jungle,I got autofill adc and my support got autofill being main top. Dodged that game. Second one,I got this dude on my team https://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=HeadAcheUK Another dodge. How the hell does this dude have D3 MMR? It's insane how stupid the ladder is atm,not enjoyable. That's why I smurf and just play 4fun. If I wanna play to climb in the main,I just get frustrated. So there's no point. Problem here is you can't blame the 6th grader playing vs the 1th graders if the TEACHERS allow it. Teachers shouldn't allow this so the match is fair.
Judging by the example you use, you recognize it's unfair and makes game terrible for the weaker side. And since that's the case, I don't know why you're defending it. If you are going around being a jerk, I will point out that you're being a jerk. Even if it is not against the law or rules :p
: There's people who are 26 years old in bronze and there's people who are 16 in Challenger. Age means nothing in this game. What's your point?
You are intentionally ignoring the very obvious point I was making. The advantage does not need to be age. It might as well be physical ability, experience or just skill in the game. When you pit people with enormous advantage against weaker opponents with no real chance of winning, the weaker side is not going to have a good time. That is why matchmaking attempts to keep Master and bronze leagues away from ending in the same match. The game's sole purpose is to be enjoyable, and smurfing is actively making it worse, and less accessible to newer and less skilled players. It's a sixth grader deciding "I really feel like beating some first graders in football", disguising as first grader and proceeding to stomp them. And when the first graders know that there is a good chance they'll be be crushed by random 6th grader and insulted for not being able to stand up to the 6th grader, what are the chances they want to keep playing football?
: What is wrong with YOU? People so delicate nowadays,the only way of learning is to get smashed. So many delicate flowers on this forum.
By that logic, we should make 1st graders play against 6th graders in PE. Both sides are sure to enjoy the game am I rite?
: What's the point in climbing? improving, u can only improve by learning. I'm just here to show u how its done correctly. Don't be angry cause u smashed by smurfs daily. L2improve.
Yes, I really want to see top player stomping newbies and making game thoroughly unenjoyable to them! What is wrong with you people?{{champion:32}}
ZereFbg (EUNE)
: Already explained it ??????? What is there else to say ? You really get things slowly do you ?
Oh, so if I constantly insult strangers on other side of the street, I'm doing nothing wrong? Or if I'm complete %%%% to everyone while playing Ice Hockey with strangers? As long as I don't intend to be in constant contact with the people, or care about them, it's ok right? I asked you about where the boundary of "real life" goes, and you didn't address it even remotely.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sleepy Sorcerer,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=Miu8H2mE,comment-id=0000000100020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-25T20:06:10.404+0000) > > I shall respond point by point. let me know if I missed anything. > > - Because if you never let me know what you think I'm misunderstanding, the issue will never > be solved. And it clearly bothers you, as you keep bringing it up. Because I am saying the exact same thing over and over again but some people are so ignorant that don't even bother to understand it (not referring to you, just in general). > You call whatever disagreements we have "bs" and don't really use anything to back up your opinion, so I can't really argue with you there. This is not disagreement, these are facts that you don't want to accept. > > Mute really should not be the solution. It's a team-game, communication is vital. > I expect people to not act like children in the game. I have lost too many games due to people who start acting like babies and blaming their team instead of focusing on the game. A teambased game without voice chat is laughable. Nobody plays soloQ as a teambased game (at least up to Dia 1+) Everything bellow that can be carried solo. So people that get pissed at someone that is intentionally loosing his games and time are crybabies ? People that are crying over dumb shit like ''ks'', ''give me blue or i feed'' etc. happens only in bronze and for the love of god why would you NOT mute them ??? Communicating with them gives NO BENEFITS, these people will not help you win so why even talk to them in the first place ? > > Me too, but from my perspective, people who get hurt and can't help screaming at others because of videogame are the snowflakes. They can't handle the pressure and make the experience worse for everyone else, while also hurting their team's chances of winning. That's not what snowflake means but w/e. > Context is everything, I have never claimed people should be banned without context, and I don't know where you even got the idea. I just don't trust that the people who have gotten banned, are honest about their own context. At least if they don't provide any proof on the reason they got banned. Finally something we both agree on. Sorry but I was too used to ''context doesn't matter'' type of shit. Its disgusting. But I get it why you don't trust people. This is what happened to me but context does not matter to Riot so its meaningless to prove it now. > > So you're saying that if people stop being punished for violating rules, they will stop violating the rules then? I am saying that punishments leading to PERMANENT bans (without any context) are stupid and don't work. But I didn't say that behaviour shouldn't be punished. I suggest lighter punishments (chat restriction or something else) that will remove some benefits for certain amount of time .Talking about REAL chat restriction not talking about the CHEAP restrictions they used to give. But I guess they will not change it since the current system is made for milking players instead of reducing toxicity. Toxicity can NEVER be removed
"This is not disagreement, these are facts that you don't want to accept." None of them are facts though, as all of our disagreements are based on assertions. "A teambased game without voice chat is laughable..." You don't need teamchat for simple communication like "Baron" "Drake" "Gank after blue" and so on. I don't know how Diamond 1 has changed since my times, but team-work without voicechat was very much a thing back when I was last playing. "That's not what snowflake means but w/e." I think someone that is easily triggered by trifling stuff and bothers everyone else about it, fits description quite well "I am saying that punishments leading to PERMANENT bans (without any context) are stupid..." Well, as we both agreed on context, there isn't much to discuss there. I do however think that if someone is consistently toxic and constantly disrupts someone else in the game, they should be permanently banned at some point. I'm more or less done now though, this has gone on long enough. Good luck in the upcoming matches o/
ZereFbg (EUNE)
: I am sorry but if you honestly think that's how it works then you are an idiot. This makes absolutely NO SENSE. The guy above me explained it as it is and you yet come to disagree. Its pretty stupid to take things seriously on the internet. Nobody knows you and nobody cares about you here. You are playing a game that is so %%%%ing stressful sometimes that getting pissed off and flaming someone is normal. He is playing with you for 20-40 min
Your apology is accepted. Now step back and try answering the question you so promptly just dodged.
: Why should I explain the same exact thing twice ?? I can see how much bs you are talking and thinking its facts. ''Mute is not an option'' - It is, its already the PERFECT option to avoid toxic environment (except for trolling/inting which are the REAL problems) What do you expect of the internet ? Its not all rainbows and sunshine, Its never and nowhere like this. Is it so hard to accept the fact that people are assholes? I am sorry but I agree with ShadyRake about how snowflakes are the problem. I've seen all kinds of %%%%ed up shit in my life and you are here complaining about hurt feelings when there is a option to mute. But apparently even that's not an option for WHATEVER REASON. I also agreed on the fact that getting permabanned for being ''toxic'' where context is not taken into consideration is one of the biggest BULLSHITS I've ever seen. It won't kick the players from the game and most certainly won't reform them, in fact it will make it worse (I already explained why).
I shall respond point by point. let me know if I missed anything. "Why should I explain the same exact thing twice ??" - Because if you never let me know what you think I'm misunderstanding, the issue will never be solved. And it clearly bothers you, as you keep bringing it up. " I can see how much bs you are talking and thinking its facts." You call whatever disagreements we have "bs" and don't really use anything to back up your opinion, so I can't really argue with you there. ''Mute is not an option'' - It is, its already the PERFECT option...." and "What do you expect of the internet ?" Mute really should not be the solution. It's a team-game, communication is vital. I expect people to not act like children in the game. I have lost too many games due to people who start acting like babies and blaming their team instead of focusing on the game. "I am sorry but I agree with ShadyRake about how snowflakes are the problem." Me too, but from my perspective, people who get hurt and can't help screaming at others because of videogame are the snowflakes. They can't handle the pressure and make the experience worse for everyone else, while also hurting their team's chances of winning. "I also agreed on the fact that getting permabanned for being ''toxic''..." Context is everything, I have never claimed people should be banned without context, and I don't know where you even got the idea. I just don't trust that the people who have gotten banned, are honest about their own context. At least if they don't provide any proof on the reason they got banned. "It won't kick the players from the game and most certainly won't reform them, in fact it will make it worse (I already explained why)." So you're saying that if people stop being punished for violating rules, they will stop violating the rules?
: Okay that got me.... ''Mute is not a solution''. That explain why you can't understand me. I get it now. Someone shoot me please
I'm sorry, but I've asked you to explain where you feel I misunderstood you 3 times now. At some point, you're going to have to either let me know what point in particular you feel was misunderstood, or let it go. I understand you, I just disagree with your premise, and don't think you made a good point.
ZereFbg (EUNE)
: That's totall bullshit LOL
Well, why is it bullshit? I asked this before, but here goes again: So how is insulting me over internet different from insulting me in real life? How about doing it over phone? E-mail? Yelling from the other side of street? At what point does the insult stop being "real life"?
: > [{quoted}](name=Sleepy Sorcerer,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=Miu8H2mE,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2018-11-25T17:09:28.562+0000) > > So how is insulting me over internet different from insulting me in real life? How about doing it over phone? E-mail? Yelling from the other side of street? At what point does the insult stop being "real life"? Because you may be a really good person but entrying in contact every day with same problems land you to frustration and stress ,and that's why most of us swear , i not even swear anyone , i got permament banned for kinda shit stuffs , if you no believe me i can take you my chat logs ,then you can call us jerks in real life cause riot makes this game impossible to play it in silent and peace , and is not alright to call someone jerk here cause he got banned.. ,that no mean most of us having such behaviour in real life or that our behaviour is such bad.!
I have said nothing about swearing, nor that getting banned makes you a jerk. I'm saying that the way you act to people on internet reflects just as much on you as a person as how you act in real life. Words are not physical, nor do they require physical contact to have impact.
: Mute is not a solution to clear this major problem, kids are rude and without respect, nowdays parents fail to raise their kids. Its a global apocalypse. Parents needs a better education how to raise their kids and monitor their behaivor in online games. Riot games needs to step up and do a video for all parents out there to prevent kids spaming racist and bad things in chat.
I agree that mute is not a solution, but I wouldn't blame any of this on kids. People are vicious when they believe they are anonymous and there are no consequences, regardless of age. I was a kid once, but I don't remember being vicious bastard that wished cancer on people, sent out death threats and wasted 30 minutes to just annoy people online.
: So how you acting in games mean you acting like that in real life ??? , is funny , you made me laught here ,the game frustration and nervs comes from dealing every day with miss behaved characters ,people who can't play this game,who flame,who troll for no reasons at all and you call me jerk if i got permanent banned for that ??? cause i had to deal with lot's of such characters ... How that makes me a jerk in real life when you can't even meet so many people to insult you every day in real life!
So how is insulting me over internet different from insulting me in real life? How about doing it over phone? E-mail? Yelling from the other side of street? At what point does the insult stop being "real life"?
: Nope, you don't understand mine. From what you say I can see that you don't understand it even one bit
There is a difference between not agreeing with, not believing, and not understanding something. Please, let me know where you feel misunderstood.
: As I said, It's like you didn't read ANYTHING I wrote or JenShen's
I have read every comment on this thread, and I'm politely asking you to point out what point I missed. Again.
: You totally missed my point WOW .... It's like you didn't read ANYTHING JenShen also explained his thoughts
So... What is the point you want me to address? Flaming doesn't always lose games?
: To be honest most of you are the reason. Mr sensitive guys who cant take a scream in real life. People say hi and you call it flame. Grow up. You make REAL FLAME irrelevant in the long term because you accuse people that you shouldn't. Grow up, i don't care if you're soft , this shouldn't be a kindergarden. I get my family wished cancer atleast 1 game a day and I laugh at it real hard with their reaction and report it. I say '' stop inting let me carry'' or ''you're bad'' and i get asked for reports. Mr soft guys get the hell out of here. Now im waiting for those boards mod wannabes who spend their life in the boards, being soft themselves answering my comment and defending ''softness''
I find it interesting that your reaction to me saying: "People are flaming too much", is to insult me.
: I tried explaining to him why people are ''toxic'' yet he didn't try to understand it
No, I understood what you were saying. I just don't believe your version of what happened. During the tribunal times, I was frequenting the player behavior forum and saw tens if not hundreds of pleas for revoking bans. Whenever someone uploaded the chatlogs (linked their tribunal case) it was completely valid ban. That's why (unless there is some proof) I don't believe arguments like yours. I understand your mindset, it seems like you don't understand mine.
: You don't get it because you probably didn't read everything I said. 4000 games and I let my temper twice (14 day ban to perma ban) THIS HAPPENS TO EVERYBODY with a competitive mindset.People with casual mindset rarely get as pissed as the ones with competitive. Its obvious that you will get pissed more to loose a game when there is something on the line. And let me say something about how flaming someone will loose the game. As I said I only flamed people that started inting/trolling. THEY WON'T STOP even if you don't flame them , this is something most of the people DON'T GET. Even if you don't flame him the outcome will be the same. And I know it more than most of them people do. As I said I had 20 games in which people were inting/trolling/going afk for childish reasons and I kept my mount shut. I had many games which were won/lost by trolls/inters. Is this fun ? Nobody likes to win/loose these kind of games. The outcome was ALWAYS THE SAME. I was not a ''jerk'' for calling out the guy that intentionally lost the time of 9 people. My punishment was total bs. Well, I mean this is where the system ULTIMATELY FAILS. Punishes the victims instead of listening to the whole story (context). Riot treats us like we are some kind of robots.
No, I read everything you said. I just didn't believe you. Sorry, I know this is rude but I have heard that argument many times before, and when people revealed the chatlogs, they were absolutely toxic.
: This is the thing I try to explain to most people that defend it... When they say that its ''GOOD'' to perma ban people and it will reform/remove them I laugh my ass off. Why would someone reform after he lost so much time and money in the game ? Look at this http://prntscr.com/lmo0bq , look at how much time I spent (only on this account)... 400$+ and nearly 3,200 hours spent on this game and I am supposed to accept my punishment for not being able to hold myself to the constant troll/int encounters. How can a person with competitive attitude that tries to win as many games as he can stay chill after having people INTENTIONALLY loosing his games and time ?
To be honest, I still don't really buy the "I was mad twice and got permabanned" argument. I used to be around when Tribunal was a thing, and there was one time I saw someone complaining about legitimately unjust ban. Other times they were varying levels of toxic. I do believe that people with any level of logical thinking should be able to make connection of: "I started flaming ---> I lost a winnable game -----> I should not do it again"" and "I flamed a lot ----> I lost all of my progress ----> I should not do it again", even if they don't see inherent value of not being a jerk.
Rioter Comments
v1rtue (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sleepy Sorcerer,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=VnbyWpc2,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-16T20:18:26.731+0000) > > I also said I would quit the game, which I have. That doesn't surprise me after reading your post. Then again, if you've quit, what are you doing here?
Im still interested in Tiny master of evil :D. I grew attached to the little guy.
Rioter Comments
: So veigar instant aoe stun is toxic but Annie is totally ok amirite ?
So it's just generally accepted fact that Veigar, underplayed champion who never got to 50% winrate, was somehow unfair? That he had no counterplay aside from the items and champions who countered him hard? Great.
Sasogwa (EUW)
: His pickrate in master+ being below 1%, the stats are not reliable. The winrate fluctuates by up to 25-30% every day. Every player in diamond + I've talked with about Veigar had a consensus that he got butchered in his viability. Thing is a lot of picks are very versatile, when they can offer engage, catch potential, mobility with multi-aspect spells, the 'catching out' part of Veigar's stun being removed, he's too specific for some situations and therefore not viable as a general pickup in high elos. I remember having a very short discussion this morning with TheValkrin (master NA player) on his stream about Veigar and he completely agreed with my opinion, explained that Riot ruined a perfectly fine champion, main problem being his E now. And when I asked about whether the reduction of E delay would do anything, he was actually like : of course, it would completely help. His problem is unreliability. Let us not forget that to trap ennemies inside the cage, Veigar has to place himself in even a worse position than before the changes, because people actually have to be inside the cage and not have the time to get out, instead of just putting the edge. And that Veigar being squishy as hell, he's very prone at that stage to get his face CC'ed and destroyed. Right now, the only role Veigar can fulfill viably would be a peel mage. Like, a defensive mage protecting his backline. How to say that? {{champion:268}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:268}} He does it better, is more reliable and has also much more to his kit (for instance the 5 man insec with E->Q->flash->ult) Let's also not forget that the changes to Veigar in the first place were supposed to be compensation buffs for DFG removal. Well, {{champion:103}} {{champion:7}} are doing fine without DFG. {{champion:45}} ? Actually not that bad post-DFG removal and pre-changes. After changes? God. Hopefully they have rebuffed him since then, especially on Q speed+range but E is still too weak. And that Veigar was not in the slightest considered OP. Even his stun WAS NOT INSTANT. There's a cast time on it, it freaking required skill to land. Also he was really weaker in lane than most picks, and only one-trick poneys such as Dabox, Nainduk managed to get high ranked with it. I can't really consider old Veigar any comparable to the level of toxicity of {{champion:245}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:7}} . You'll notice that every player complaining about old Veigar either does not have more than 5 games with the champion or is below diamond. Usually both.
This is exactly what annoys me. People who didn't play veigar, are saying that he is better than he used to be, whereas diamond and higher veigar players almost all agree that he was destroyed.
Tobykachu (EUW)
: At rank 5 Event Horizon, even people with merc treads will be hit by dark matter, the same with Zhonya's. You will still die if you're stunned. Banshee's is definitely the best item to counter the old Veigar but the enemy mid laner is unlikely to rush it. Knowing his stun range is one thing, but actually killing him whilst remaining outside of it's range is another. In my opinion the most toxic part of Veigar's kit still remains. The part of his ult that scales with the enemy's ap. Just seems like a really 'anti fun' mechanic. 'Oh, you picked Karthus? Well, don't build any AP or Veigar will just ult you and that's you done for the fight.' But old Veigar was toxic because he could just appear and one shot you, even tankier members of a team would get blown up by old Veigar. So a change was innevitable eventually. After playing about 50 or so games with the new Veigar I definitely noticed his stun being a lot more impactful in a team fight. I found I managed to stun 2 or 3 people per stun as opposed to one, simply because I was aiming to trap people inside the stun as opposed to just catching one person. Also, I noticed you seem to have trouble landing his w unless the enemy is actually stunned, but if you successfully manage to trap your enemy inside the cage, not stunned but trapped, then aim the 'w' in the middle of the circle and the size of the dark matter tends to be large enough for it to hit most character's hit boxes! Not all the time but a lot of the time it does work! If you look at the Veigar win rates in challenger, then I believe he has one of the highest win rates in the game at the moment.
Event horizon didn't get to rank 5 before endgame, and you didn't have time to land whole combo if enemy had mercs. If you tried, they had time to zhonya the ultimate, and possibly darkmatter. And killing 0 mobility champion without getting in his range isn't supposed to be doable for most champions. That'd be pretty antifun, if you ask me. If veigar 1-shots someone with just ultimate, they have stacked only ap on top of ap without any kind of mr while veigar is likely fed, and that's just them not using any of the counterplay options. It's kinda like going "I didn't build Qss against Malzahar why isn't there any counterplay to his ult?" And appearing out of nowhere and oneshotting you, is what most ap-carries are capable of. Annie does it, Syndra does it, LB does it, Zed does it and Talon does it, heck even some bruisers do it to squishies. I don't see how veigar is worse offender than them just because he has to farm more to execute it. And honestly, are you using "I could only get 1 guy with stun before" as argument? Oh and W's hitbox is WAY smaller than area inside E. You have plenty room to dodge it. You keep exaggerating or belittling old veigar's strengths and ignore his weaknesses.
Tobykachu (EUW)
: You hit the nail on the head! Veigar is incredibly weak in a 1 vs 1 scenario, but old Veigar offered far too little counter play and was a very toxic part of League. To make up for it his team fighting power is through the roof and very few mid laners offer as much power in a team fight as Veigar and with the meta having shifted to tanks and more structured team fights, Veigar's kit has been changed to suit it, which in my opinion, makes it an overall buff.
Saying that he had "no counterplay" is absolute rubbish, as if it had been true, he'd have been on top of ban list forever. However, there was loads of counterplay for him, which is why he remained as unusual pick. He had clear strengths (great burst in mid/lategame and great stun) and weaknesses (weak in earlygame and fragile during whole game, no mobility and long cd's). The ones without counterplay, are the ones without clear weaknesses. Here's some counterplay for old veigar (and new veigar as well): Mercury's threads, Qss, Banshees veil, hourglass and many, many, many, MANY champions. Know his stun range. Catch him off position. Get 1 or 2 of items above and demolish him. Don't stack ap on top of ap. Don't 1v1 him after 20 minutes if he has gotten farm, unless you're prepared, as you wouldn't Nasus. I get what you're trying to say, about him being more teamfight oriented, I just respectfully disagree. The thing is, that the reasons given to the change, are absolute poppycock, if you may. There are champions who can deal safe damage from longer distance (Xerath, Nida) and there are champions who deal more damage more easily with more mobility (Ahri, Zed). Why was Veigar the one that was deemed "Toxic"?
Tobykachu (EUW)
: These changes have completely changed his role as a champion. Stop thinking of Veigar as this champion who can stand on the front line of a team, throw down a stun, then one shot whoever was unfortunate to get hit by it. The fact of the matter is, old Veigar didn't scale all that well into late game, which is strange due to his infinite AP gain, but with cool-downs as large as his, and range as pathetic as it was, just meant it was pretty easy to play around a late game Veigar, especially with items, most notably, QSS, Banshee's Veil and Zhonya's hourglass. While this form of Veigar has no effectively been removed from the game, a new, more deadly one has taken it's place. Let's start from the beginning. Early laning for the old Veigar was the major weakness of the old Veigar. Basically every champion could punish Veigar early game, making it impossible for him to get stacks and effectively making the game a 4 vs 5. Now Veigar has a much higher range on his q, a shorter cool-down at early levels and the ability to hit two minions at once. This makes it a lot more difficult for Veigar's laner to punish him, and ganks are required to really stop Veigar from farming, but with the new stun, it's a lot harder to get on top of Veigar and shut him down. Nearly all junglers rely on some kind of gap closer to get in and beat Veigar, and if they get stopped halfway the gank is effectively over, wasting a lot of time for the jungler, relieving pressure elsewhere on the map. Generally when it comes to itemization, I tend to not get {{item:3070}} as it takes way too long to stack and makes early dragons and other objectives very easy for the enemy to get. My favourite personal build on Veigar is {{item:3165}} , {{item:3020}} , {{item:3089}} , {{item:3135}} , {{item:3157}} and finally {{item:3285}} to maximize AP and damage output. Now with Veigar's increased AoE and lower cool-downs, he is much more about team fighting, as he can quite easily get down two or three event horizons in a typical team fight, that can really turn around a team fight. Poke with q's and throw down w's to either zone, or when you or your ally has the target cc'ed. Then ult the enemy apc if possible, or the adc if they are not in range for you. These are you two priority targets. Use your event horizon's to stop enemies from engaging. Seriously, there are very few champions that can successfully engage on a team with Veigar on it, the only two that I can think of off the top of my head are Vi and Malphite. Champs like Leona, Thresh, Amumu and Wukong really struggle to get ontop of him.
What you are saying, is that he's more team-oriented. What im seeing, is that he's outmatched by everyone in 1v1 situations, while sub-par in teamfights, as he still has 0 mobility, is fragile and his only valuable skill is E. I just fail to see how he is deadlier than he used to be, especially since I still don't know even 1 nonsupport-champion who he could beat 1v1. It seems you are also downplaying the old veigar quite much, and forgetting that there were people who loved to play him, me included, who feel betrayed when their champion was promised compensation, and was nerfed/reworked. It's especially frustrating when my other mains have been pre-reworked Karma, and Poppy (Whose rework was coming soon 3 years ago) who just isn't viable most of the time. Darkmatter is still one of the slowest skills in the game to land, so unless enemy has 0 tenacity and you are ready to land it the moment someone get's cc'd, you'll miss. It used to be common sense that you need E to land W, but now you need someone else to Cc enemies instead. Q, as I said, is on longer cd in endgame, and less reliable. R, had scaling reduced for some mysterious reason. And E is often walked out of, or just flashed out of after it has appeared. And as long as Flash works on it, almost any of the tanks can initiate inside it. Im the first to admit, that im bothered when my main gets reworked as "compensation". And Im quite frustrated when former 1v1 antimage get's casually remade into team fight supporter. The fact that I had bought legendary skin for him month prior to his sudden rework, just added insult to injury. And I guarantee you'd see similiar outcry from more people, if target would have been someone like Ahri. Imagine if Riot decided to suddenly compensate her, by remaking her into low mobility champ with no skillshots and less reliable Cc. Btw, why does the forum make me +1 my own posts on default? Seems weird.
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Sleepy Sorcerer

Level 66 (EUNE)
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