TTekkers (EUW)
: I feel it's as much a meta issue as a Kog'Maw issue. All the low mobility DPS carries are struggling right now, except for a handful of champs who have some stupid interaction they can abuse.
Might be a meta issue, I haven't seen many tanks lately except for enemy Leona a few times. Even melee champs go for offensive builds often, which is bad for Kog, it means he can get killed almost instantly. But he had some struggles in past year and a half and still kept coming on top. He would still do mighty fine if he had damage. I remember often losing early trades only to get doublekill once I made Rageblade. It won't happen again with its flat stats so severely reduced.
: they are slowly rebalancing marksmen itemization at first and maybe then turn attention to specific champions. Atleast thats what it seems to me
Well, they have been buffing some other champions that aren't doing so great, so I don't think this is the case. Maybe they just have no idea yet, on what to do with Kog.
: Akali shroud is stupid
Well, Riot seems to hate vision. Wards limited to 3 were interesting for supports - they are no longer only playing a vision game. Oracle's Elixir removal was good for invisible champions and champions with invisible traps, to make them more cancerous. But you always had pink wards, so what's the problem. Well, no more pink wards. Invisible means invisible, live with it (or more like, die from that). Or just hide behind turrets. They will see ... nothing, it seems. Riot has big plans with League of Legends, but it seems to me they lack some ... vision.
: Tower feel useless
Yeah, towers feel utterly useless. I mean, they need to be protected to deny enemy team gold. They give some slight annoyance in the way towards killing the inhibitors and eventually nexus. But with some wits and teamplay, they can be dived at level 3-4, and with some slight tanky stats, a lvl 6 dive of Leona seems like nothing too hard. Just dive, stunlock, take tower shots for the carry and walk away still somewhat healthy. Of course, some supports can do more against that than Bard, but you have no control over your teammates.
Rioter Comments
Enjutsu (EUNE)
: I find it easier to deal with invisibility, geting pink in inventory not always was possible, but that shimering really helps.
Good luck buying pink, it has been removed.
: {{champion:107}} now has the most obvious camouflage ever in that not only do you hear a LOUD sound, your screen also dims even if you're not his target. All these stealth champions communicate where they are going while entering stealth, except for {{champion:35}}. If you're really desperate for a counter, start placing control wards and play with a {{champion:4}} player.
Rengar's ult still has a lot of fear factor. You don't want to be the one who he leas on and unleshes his whole combo. Sadly, your team's tank doesn't look much willing, either. {{champion:4}} is sure a nice choice, and mentioned by others as well. And it seems {{champion:268}} cxame through unnoticed. The tower (the one he can create out of sand and thin air) sure helps a lot, giving true vision as well.
: {{champion:28}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:29}} are merely camouflaged and can be revealed by {{item:2055}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:67}} invisibility is either local, short duration or takes time to scale and can still be detected by {{item:3364}} {{item:3341}}
Detected =/= Visible. You can't use any autoattacks or targeted abilities, if you rely on those, you should better run.
Eveninn (EUW)
: {{item:3147}} seems to still reveal invisibility, at least I remember a recent situation where it seemed to reveal me. Other than that, keeping an eye on enemies and warding. No invisibility lasts long enough to actually sneak up on someone who has warded around their area. When you know they are coming it's not too hard to avoid them (mainly by retreating).
I think I remember an oracle eye above someone who has just used the passive against a ward. If it's a feature rather than bug, it makes the item more interesting and important. A pity it's a passive (and requires a nearby ward) and it can be "defused" by planting a ward near the wielder of this item.
: Vayne. Her invisibility is combat, but it is coupled with dash and control (that shot which displaces and stuns if hitting a wall). Good Vayne players can kill without even letting enemy hit him once.
Yup, Vayne. Her invisibility is short, but she tends to reappear somewhere, get a kill and become invis again. A bit like Kha'Zix, but with more sustained damage and even more invisibility.
Rioter Comments
Magneset (EUW)
: I think it should work so that you can never climb neither up or down. If you go below 0 it should go into - and if you climb up it shouldnt go further than 100. In terms of the games lost, as long as no cheats are detected he of course shouldnt be punished for anything but if he cheated, even though he lost he should still get a heavy punishment.
Yes, the cheater gets punished, that's nothing new, that already happens. I was more interested by the effect on other players. Let's say the cheater lost a game - there were two feeders and a leaver. Unlike wins, that game doesn't get reverted, does it? Anyway, with the current ranked system (leagues, divisions), this kind of "LP refund" is not that much useful idea.
Nettioma (EUNE)
: Kog'maw and Kassadin family
Kog'Maw? What is it? Some brand of Void food? Jokes aside - wow, someone still haven't forgotten that ex-champion?
Magneset (EUW)
: LP idea against cheaters/boosters/scripters
I think this would have worked perfectly in the days of ELO / MMR. Not sure if it's okay to just push you up a few divisions or to a different league? Anyway, the effect of cheaters on ranking should in theory be quite low (let's say you never cheat, so out of the 9 remaining players, it is either one of your four allies or five enemies, giving you 44% win rate in games with cheaters). It is more anti-fun and to me, it seems more important to stop them from cheating more quickly than to invent some tools that actually cancel the games played. Also, what about games the cheater actually lost? :)
: Kog'maw W never costed mana
Kog was partially reverted, not completely. Basically, the buffs were reverted, the nerfs stayed where they are. No wonder Kog sinked so fast. If any of the jokers in Riot was serious about "making Kog more competitive", (s)he must have some serious psychological issues. The other nerfs that stayed are: HP down by 24-119 (-24, -5 per level), AD (+2.4 to -7.6 based on lvl) and ultimate (higher costs, no poke, but that is going to change soon, see http://boards.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/ee3UIhVu-upcoming-kog-changes-in-621 ). To sum it up, Kog is severely nerfed compared to Season 5 and even if some item changes were advantageous, he is still quite a bit on the weak side.
Vlasec (EUNE)
: Upcoming Kog changes in 6.21
Ugh. I forgot to add labels to the axis in the graphs. I fixed it in the original link (can't replace it tho) and you can see it better here: http://ctrlv.in/860586
Vlasec (EUNE)
: Upcoming Kog changes in 6.21
I ask you guys a favor: If any of you rate Kog as great or balanced champion, please share your build with me. To me, Kog seems a bit on the weak side no matter what I build.
Rioter Comments
: Well I'm hoping for the whole koggie community to do the experimenting but I'm sure there is some dedicated koggie fan who is currently doing as much as possible (unfortunately worlds won't be played on a patch with this current koggie so the experimentation is gonna be really slow as there just isn't any high profile games to showcase any developments).
Btw. I actually tried a few games and I found some possible builds, however, it just doesn't feel quite strong enough. It's like you were playing your favorite champion and you were on a new account with lvl 20 against lvl 30 guys of similar skill. Like you missed some runes and mana regen mastery. I'll wait with further experiments for Riot to at least slightly buff the poor little alien worm.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vlasec,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=njfLurvA,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-30T10:29:23.261+0000) > > You are missing one thing about marksman Kog: While he eventually does most of his damage from auto-attacks, he still needs to get there. On lane, almost everything counters Kog now. When playing against Varus or Cait, the possibility of at least replying to their poke was nice to have. When playing against all-in champions like Draven and Vayne, it was the only chance to reduce the enemy health, as going into auto-attack range was a death sentence. The ult as a poke was what kept Kog afloat last season. He doesn't have it now, plus he lost some stats -> no wonder he sinks. > > So, yeah, a Kog'Maw that already has full (AD or on-hit) build doesn't mourn the old ult nearly as much as an AP Kog. But in laning phase, it still hurts a lot not to have it. Oh well, people drop champs and call them dead and unviable and worse for way less than this. I'm not that kind. My only issue with Kog is that, as it's true for a lot of other champs, you chances to win drops dramatically if your team can't help you even to a minimun degree. And since in low elo you NEVER know if your team will assist you with at least that minimum, i would not advice anyone but the greatest player or the greatest fans to pick it those ranks.
I didn't call him anything like that in this thread, so I wonder what you are "replying" to. Anyway, the most similar to "useless" what I wrote here is that Kog is in a losing matchup on bot lane almost everytime. And that is nothing new, in season 5 it was the same. Kog just had to survive and then, as hypercarries do, shine in the late game. But now it's harder as he can't poke them with ult when it's too dangerous to even farm.
: Well I'm hoping for the whole koggie community to do the experimenting but I'm sure there is some dedicated koggie fan who is currently doing as much as possible (unfortunately worlds won't be played on a patch with this current koggie so the experimentation is gonna be really slow as there just isn't any high profile games to showcase any developments).
I was also a dedicated Kog fan. And I'd lie if I told you I'm not masochist. There can be pleasure in pain. Body piercings, play piercings, ropes, there is some pleasure in that. But I find no pleasure in playing a champion with appaling early game. Losing lane, muting all the flamers, losing game. Then repeating it over and over, trying to find some (un)holy grail that gives Kog some mild chance at breaking even at least. Nope, I'm too vanilla for that.
: Yeah... gunblade would be nice on koggie... new runnans has an on hit component, rageblade would be great for his W, rapid fire cannon plus his normal range increase could be nice, phantom dancer would be able to keep him safe... hell the masteries alone have enough room for experimentation thanks to the keystones. There are so many new items that we can't know what is truly strong on him yet... hell the runnan builds a lot of the other adcs are doing is a rather recent development despite the changes that caused it being relativity old... we now have to do a seasons worth of build experimentation and catch up in a relativity short amount of time for koggie to catch up with the adcs, considering how far behind he is its not surprising he is feeling weak right now... but once he catches up for all we know he is too strong. So riot is right to hold off the changes till his build starts to adapt. We will likely know more by preseason (actually due to a lot of the adcs building that Korean ghostblade build which is getting targeted in order to get rid of that build so they will go back to where koggie currently is as well... in fact look at the likes of mf, jhin and twitch after this change, I guarantee you it will mirror what koggie is currently going through)... who knows preseason might benefit koggie immensely which would mean buffs are even more ill advised. So these things take time... So let's wait till at least 6.21 is near (or when we see the preseason stuff) before we make a judgement like this.
OK, one question. Who will do the "season worth of build experimentation"? Is there a masochist who would volunteer for such gruesome task?
: > [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=bQLA3waK,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-30T02:43:13.149+0000) > > Hope you feel better after bragging now. On the other hand you admitted that we didn't see real pro play for Kog'Maw. So what am I meant to believe from your side now? > > But I got it, some people probably think if you don't play rankeds you are not allowed to have an opinion. Well koggie is the guy sitting in the back dishing out all the dmg. The problem is the current assassin meta wich leaves him to facetank things. All other adc's i can think of have some sort of escape from such situations. If the meta shifts more to tanking again we'll see more of kog, otherwise he'll remain in this forgotten little corner.
Yup, that pretty much sums up his position, forgotten in a corner. He is more glass and less cannon.
: Try Twitch. With some jungle help (or a really good support) to get you a lead he seems even stronger than the reworked Kog. I got a Penta in my 2nd ranked game with him this season, killing everybody in a few seconds, felt just like playing Kog :D {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Yeah, his ultimate is awesome. I remember helping one such rodent with Amumu, rooting the enemies for 2 seconds just when the rodent was coming out of stealth. It was a massacre.
: Kog with 5.0 attack speed was impossible to balance. you can't have a champ with 5.0 as in the game and not taking into account wen creating something related to onhit. than he was completly uninractiv it was supose to be that kog stands still in a fight and if the fight moved from one point to another he lost a lot of his dps. and last and prob most important one: scripts. Kog was with this the most broken champt to run scripts with and riot knows that. the old kog was totaly fine i never understood why they did this in the first place.
You are right the old Kog was totally fine. However, that was before other adcs got buffed, and the current Kog is not the old Kog, he is a useless worm, much rather. Sometimes even a slight nerf can kill a champion, and Kog received multiple nerfs compared to patch 5.21. I disagree with the original poster in many points, but the "Kog gutted" is a good description of current state.
: When the 300 Armor 240 MR Tank Dies 1.5 Seconds after he activated W whilst also oneshotting your Backline with {{item:3085}} then something is wrong. He turned into a walking Tower that the whole team just had to stand infront of whilst collecting the free win. I might be too salty but thats how he got played in my games
I remember destroying bruisers with HP and low armor/MR very quickly, but not tanks. A real full tank like Skarner, I was unable to kill him at all without building magic penetration. A very tanky Olaf was able to kill me in below two seconds, and I didn't even hurt him that bad. Of course, those tanks were fed. You can't expect to survive a fed adc when you are an underfed tank. That doesn't happen even with other adcs. Also, that standing Kog was rather easy to assassinate or stun, but I admit the dmg was quite far on the OP side. Still, the "un-rework" was pretty much how the original poster called it - Riot gutted Kog. It's not a rework or minor nerf, it is bloody murder.
: That i would want some buff to his ult, even only some less seconds to wait for the reset of it's cost (you know, the "rework" almost doubled that). It's ridiculous that RioT nerfed his ult as a consequence of the buff to W, and then, when W is nerfed back, the ult stay nerfed too.
Yeah, it went together with the W buff, and as such, it didn't bother me much. But now it negatively impacts Kog no matter if he's AD, on-hit or AP, and there is no buff to compensate, but more nerfs instead.
: The thing is, this is old kog maw. There was a reason for him geting reworked (you may have noticed this since you made a board entrance). But the updated kog maw was just way too hard to balance, he is either way too op or way too weak so the revert changes aren't gonna be permanent if i understood it right and will only be there until he gets his next rework to possibly make it so he is actually balancable in a healthy way.
This is NOT the old Kog'Maw. It is merely a shadow of its former glory, a useless worm. More squishy, less base AD, higher mana costs, no poke left.
Enjutsu (EUNE)
: It's too early to judge, alot of people are still building the old on-hit kog'maw. And TF kog is questionable too.
I checked LoLking builds and the reworked Kog rush item, Wit's End, dropped to 12%. It was a niche item back in S5, I actually liked Wit's -> Runaan's build back then. I also see TriForce at 50%, it was a thing in Season 5. There is also IE above Rageblade (which is still not a bad item). Also, "a lot of people" ... The pick rate was around 4% before the revert and now it's dropping steadily. Yesterday's statistic says Kog was picked in 1.2% games as a bot lane champion in Plat+. That is not a whole lot of people.
: Hope you feel better after bragging now. On the other hand you admitted that we didn't see real pro play for Kog'Maw. So what am I meant to believe from your side now? But I got it, some people probably think if you don't play rankeds you are not allowed to have an opinion.
Look, I didn't really brag. You said "the change was actually just a nerf for players in 'low elo' (even if I don't like that term)". I climbed to platinum mainly playing Kog, and I bet I would climb inside platinum, too, even though a bit slower. Kog had a win rate of 54% in Plat+, and I saw that statistics on multiple servers. You are free to show your opinion, it was just funny to read you commenting about low elo players while not being even ranked yourself. I'm in fact interested in your Dia+ statistics, but you haven't reply to any of my other comments yet.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vlasec,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=njfLurvA,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-30T00:59:37.397+0000) > > Your original post in this thread is about "new ult being bad for AP Kog, but AD Kog is fine with that". I replied at that in my first reply that you are wrong. For some weird reason you disagreed. How can you know when you haven't even tried AD Kog once since the revert? > > Anyway, I then busted your "powerful AD/AS to reduce enemy to half hp, then the ult is better" argument in my second reply. Then you accused me of not reading what you wrote and in my third reply I actually misinterpreted what you wrote. But I still stand for everything else I wrote. _If you are going AD, you probably don't care that much because getting near to use AAs is what you were probably going to do anyway. But it's a rather annoying nerf for those you liked to play Kog in the Mid lane as the only and true artillery mage._ This is the nearest i came to your supposed "new ult being bad for AP Kog, but AD Kog is fine with that". Then, they is nothing to bust, but again, a simple matter of playstyle that the "rework" discombobulate: now you don't a have a reliable source of damage in your ult only, but to get that (imagining a 1 vs 1 scenario) you have to use your other skills to at least half your opponent. By playing AD, probably ADC, this chance will naturally come in your lap as part of the fact that sooner or later you are supposed to use your AAs and to know how to do it safely. If you play AP, probably you have to get near enough to at least use your E, that got the best range and a nice scaling. Whetever the ideal best is to try to follow up with Q + W, or wait for another E, or anything else, is something to be learned on the field.
You are missing one thing about marksman Kog: While he eventually does most of his damage from auto-attacks, he still needs to get there. On lane, almost everything counters Kog now. When playing against Varus or Cait, the possibility of at least replying to their poke was nice to have. When playing against all-in champions like Draven and Vayne, it was the only chance to reduce the enemy health, as going into auto-attack range was a death sentence. The ult as a poke was what kept Kog afloat last season. He doesn't have it now, plus he lost some stats -> no wonder he sinks. So, yeah, a Kog'Maw that already has full (AD or on-hit) build doesn't mourn the old ult nearly as much as an AP Kog. But in laning phase, it still hurts a lot not to have it.
: It's not what is new about koggie it's what is new about the game... it's been close to a season since he was last like this and a ton of stuff has changed, especially items pretty much every adc has got a new build now thanks to the item changes... yet as soon as we get koggie back everyone assumed he would build what he used to. So yeah koggie himself isn't that new... but every adc has reinvented themselves after the marksman update so we need to do the same for koggie instead of assuming he is gonna be building what he used to. So for all intensive purposes he is a new champion, not because he is new but because we need to have a completely fresh look at his item choices.
Most of the new adc items involve some crit, which is where Kog can bring no surprise. But ok, there are some items with unique passives. For example, Gunblade has Omnivore passive that can be used on Kog that already has attack speed and deals huge damage to sustain him from all damage he does, including on-hit. The familiar "new" passive of Gunblade, borrowed from Devourer, is nice, but the item takes six hits to wind up and it's so damn expensive. Riot can't make sure there are no hidden secrets waiting for players to find it. There can be some on the champions that nobody plays, thus nobody knows they are in fact OP. There can be some on meta champs that people never notice as they just spam the meta build without trying theorycrafting at all. There may be some guides online, but Riot would have to scour for those to learn, rather than just wait for a thing to become mainstream.
TTekkers (EUW)
: I disagree about the items - TriForce Kog was sliding out of relevance & being replaced by a more standard ADC build - so now with no bonus movespeed (and no furor boots!) and large AS, kiting is possible, but difficult. And TriForce's changes will only have pushed that build further back. And I do have a grudge - I was just starting to pick up S5 Kog'Maw when they announced the changes and I was pretty hyped. Then they released Mr Machine Gun and he was just a boring stat-check. I dropped him immediately because he was boring and felt like you had 0 outplay potential, even if he was as good as a free win once you realised you had to build on-hit items.
If you are going for standard ADC build, then yes, TriForce is just a delay. Hurricane or perhaps Shiv first is probably a better thing to do. However, why play a risky Kog when you can play safe Cait with similar range, way better AD scaling and way better kiting, focusing on AD slightly more and AS slightly less than Kog. You could say the same about Jinx. You can play protect the Cait/Jinx with way lower risk that the carry you are supposed to protect doesn't even take off. Last season I played Kog with Wit's - Runaan, but back then, Runaan gave 70% AS. Then I often went for BoRK, reaching 2.5 AS with defensive boots. I could build two tank items and still deal good DPS. The "OP new build", or using my words instead, a **viable** new build, could perhaps be something like that, something that abuses his percentage damage while allowing him to have some tankiness to make up for his lack of mobility. And now that I think of it, I also sometimes built Frozen Mallet which is a useful kiting item.
: Kog always felt like a tank destroyer to me. Who got forgotten when vayne came out. Now people don't seem to really know what to do with him. With the usual proper bodyguard people can still dish out a disgusting amount of damadge though. His power lies in organized teamfights, soloQ is kinda meeehhhhh for that kind of thing.
I remember playing him with a very tanky on-hit build with Runaan's for triple hit, last season. The percentage damage on its own with some AS and some on-hit (Wit's, BoRK) still was a lot of damage, and while it wasn't enough to kill anyone quickly, the triple hit damage that also ate tanks, was quite good. Often the damage resulted just into enemies reduced to 30% HP, running away to safety, which still helped get an objective.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vlasec,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=njfLurvA,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-29T20:20:22.477+0000) > > AD and AS is not enough to kill an enemy, you also need crit. A crit build only starts being really effective with 3 items. You have 25-30 minutes before this happens. How are you going to reduce your enemy with AD/AS before that when your enemies have AD scaling on 2-3 abilities, not just ult? > > I read what you wrote, and it is nonsense. I wouldn't be busting your "The new ult is so awwsome" theory if I didn't read it, right? Too bad that it's exactly the opposite of what I wrote. I'm angry with RioT for the lack of compensation for all the nerfs of the rework that were not reverted. But whatever.
Your original post in this thread is about "new ult being bad for AP Kog, but AD Kog is fine with that". I replied at that in my first reply that you are wrong. For some weird reason you disagreed. How can you know when you haven't even tried AD Kog once since the revert? Anyway, I then busted your "powerful AD/AS to reduce enemy to half hp, then the ult is better" argument in my second reply. Then you accused me of not reading what you wrote and in my third reply I actually misinterpreted what you wrote. But I still stand for everything else I wrote.
: That is exactly what happened... a champion who wasnt in need of a buff got one because they where new... this is why riot have been slowing down their buffs to new champions because if when the dust settles they are too strong you don't want to add a buff onto that. And how do you know it won't happen with this koggie... we have shoe horned him into old koggie because we think it's the same but a lot has changed since then... what if this too weak phase is simply because we are building him wrong... if riot buffed him then we find the right build it could be catastrophic. In fact this has happened before... originally we thought gnar was supposed to rush tri force but he felt weak so riot buffed him next patch, we then discovered the full tank build and he started tearing up pro play. What if this is what is happening... for all we know tri force is the wrong item choice for him early and this is causing his weakness (which honestly I think it is... when I played him his early game was weak but once i got 4 items I was able to 1v1 a fed miss fortune... I think the tri force delayed my power spike... or it might not have we don't know). Hell has anyone even tried a different build on him or did we all assume he would fit perfectly back into what he used to be. So long story short he might appear weak atm... but we have all seen that at launch a new champion or rework can be very deceptive in terms of power... and for all intensive purposes koggie is a completely new champion, he isn't the koggie we used to know so we should treat him like we did poppy, Sion, yorick and all the other full reworks.
So you say that three months are not enough to state that the champion is actually underpowered?! You say "we have shoe horned him into old koggie because we think it's the same but a lot has changed since then" ... "koggie is a completely new champion, he isn't the koggie we used to know". What exactly do you see new about him? The only thing that might seem new is his ult, but that is mostly a nerf. The rest is just straight nerfs on stats and mana costs (W, R). I don't deny your point without reading and thinking about it, but you still didn't say what is so new about him. I see no such thing. Anyway, you stated earlier that Riot needs data. They could notice the Rageblade build before S6 even started, but they didn't. Not even in two or three monts. Maybe their data collection method is flawed.
TTekkers (EUW)
: **Does Kog'Maw have a future?** Yes - he's far from OP right now, but hypercarry ADCs are almost never irrelevant, and Kog'Maw is THE hypercarry. **Does that future feature players who played 5.0 AS sit still to kill Koggles?** Probably not - his kit is not conducive to standing still and pressing W any more. **Does that future feature players who main the nuts out of the ADC role and can kite like gods?** Probably, his AS is within normal bounds, but bloated by his Q passive and the items you'll likely be building making kiting a bit trickier than your standard ADC, and since he's immobile with windows of short (500) range the ability to make your own mobility will be key. **Will he find a wacky new OP build?** Doubt it - unless we get a plethora of AS & AP synergistic items in the S7 preseason, alongside some buffs to his AP ratios, specifically on his W. ___ Wait and see - he won't be a SoloQ stomper, he won't make flashy plays, but he'll find his own solid place in the game. It'll probably be the one he vacated at the end of S5 ....
> Does Kog'Maw have a future? Being a hypercarry is nice, but it doesn't prevent you from being irrelevant. If you struggle surviving until the late game, then it's actually better to just pick some early champion and try winning it before the hypercarries kick in. Which might take long if they lost both in farm and in kills. > Does that future feature players who played 5.0 AS sit still to kill Koggles? Hehe, looks like you still hold some grudge. Of course I did it this season. Not in the previous one though, and I still almost made it to plat playing Kog. But you are right about the players who only played reworked Kog moving elsewhere. > Does that future feature players who main the nuts out of the ADC role and can kite like gods? Just the opposite about the items - Trinity Force makes kiting way easier with Phage passive and 5% movement speed. The CDR also shortens the window of low range. His kit used to be awesome for kiting back when most champions had to walk. The dashing tanks make kiting a lot harder when you play an immobile champ like Kog. > Will he find a wacky new OP build? I didn't ask for something like that. I would be okay with a build that allows him to survive the lane without losing too much farm and dying several times. Last season, Triforce was the item to rush in last season, but it doesn't seem like quite enough in this season. --- At the end of S5, Kog was a good mid-tier pick. Can he get back there with being nerfed and competition buffed? Probably not.
: That was the statement for the change we got, I am a low elo scrub so I don't actually know about this balancing, just read about pro players stating that. You got a point. But it seems to me like Kog'Maw was actually not well balanced then. Before his full build, it seems like you are able to handle him. If he is full build he was just op. At least the stuff I just read about that topic. So isn't it actually a good thing giving a champ a kit, that is balancable? And there is still the point that he has above 50% winrate in diamond and above. So how is that unviable in any way?
Can you provide me some statistic about Dia+ win rates? You asked me for my sources, too. I wasn't able to find any Dia statistics. However, in Plat+, he is at 46% right now, being the second worst only "beated" by the bug-plagued Kalista. Anyway, if he's good in Diamond, I guess he is played in a composition there, not as a solitary pick with e.g. Blitz support. The magic of team compositions is that it uses all the synergies, both using the best out of some strengths and covering some weaknesses. That's why a slow and fragile Kog with Karma shield is a feared Juggermaw, but a Kog "backed" by a Blitz is dead meat.
TTekkers (EUW)
: Um, we've had no real pro play of the void puppy for aaaaaaaaages, S6 Kog'Maw saw a little pro play when his damage was off the charts, but to see the the last meaningful pro Koggles play you have to go back to S5 ....
That's true, I guess ... but the current Kog is a heavily nerfed version of S5 Kog, with only the ult change having a slight aspect of a buff in the low HP range. Without further buffs, the partial revert won't make Kog any useful in competitive. However, I guess that won't stop the pro players from practicing Kog for the future patches when he will (hopefully) shine again, at least when played correctly and with a "protect the carry" composition.
: Well it's not just all in champions... even koggie has had this happen before with the mini gun rework... felt weak so they moved his attack speed buff and suddenly he was tearing up solo Q It isn't restricted to one type of champion... any champion can have this even one like koggie... And considering the fiasco of the juggernaut update which was caused entirely by riot buffing too early it's not surprising riot wants to play this safe and only buff when they have sufficent data... they are actually learning from their mistakes.
It might have seemed that the buff CAUSED the madness. In fact, it merely TRIGGERED it. It was like "oh hey, sorry, Kog was too weak, here is a buff" and people started trying out. Just like they tried with 6.19 release. The reaction, however, was "wow, he is really OP, let's spam the SoloQ!", so both pick rate and ban rate skyrocketed and Riot had to make nerfs. In 6.4 they nerfed his base AS to an non-hypercarry classic 0.625. And patch 6.5, while looking like a nerf, was actually awesome. It freed Kog'Maw players to max whichever skill they prefer, first. With Q being a bad choice though. Should I get more range and some slight on-hit damage increase? Or the 52% slow with decent AoE damage that can also be used for waveclear in bad matchups? For me it was E. If Riot didn't make the 6.3 buff, maybe I'd be still playing the "so weak" Kog with having a win rate of 60%, reaching diamond by now. Or maybe people would just notice a few patches later, after seeing some LCS player destroy the whole enemy team in three seconds with only two items. It's hard to tell. Either way, Kog was OP, but almost nobody noticed for a few patches.
: Can't you just be happy he isn't the horror he used to be?
I played him most of the season, so I am not all that happy.
: Do you remember fiora after her rework... she seemed weak so riot buffed her the next patch after she came out and she became a massive issue... same with gnar, Taliyah, azir, darius, swain, yasuo, koggie, tahm, poppy, sion and countless others... Riot is doing the correct thing here... by monitoring koggie they actually do need to monitor him and not just jump blindly into buffs while we are still adapting. Riot have learned from their mistakes and are actually gonna take things slow. If koggie needs buffs he will likely get them in 6.21 or 6.22... once riot actually have some solid data to actually work with instead of doing stuff blindly. EDIT: you realise those win and play rates are about right... koggie is a champion who you need to dedicate a team to for him to do well... he always has been. That means he isn't a solo Q champion so if he is doing well or getting picked a lot in an environment he really shouldn't be then he would need nerfs simple as that.
Unlike Fiora, Kog is not a champ that would just either go all-in or did nothing. He can pour damage from afar. Anyway, I think the marksmen of bot lane were mostly buffed, so if Riot just gave us a S5 Kog'Maw with no changes, he would likely be a somewhat balanced, slightly underperforming champ. He had multiple nerfs: W mana cost, R mana cost, health, AD, compared to S5. And he lost the poke of the ult which was vital for him to break even on the lane rather than going 0/5. I guess Riot is overly cautious.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vlasec,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=njfLurvA,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-29T19:14:35.483+0000) > > OK, I guess you assume a build with AD in it. It will need two AS/crit items at least, so you will get to something like 150 bonus AD. Now, Kog ult only scales from bonus AD, not from the base. So let's say you have a full build with 250 AD and lvl 16+. You crit for 600. Your ult goes as following: > > * New: 100 damage from extra AD, 150 base = 250. Doubled and tripled on low hp - 500, 750. > * Old: 75 damage from extra AD, 320 base = 395. Not doubled or tripled, but 20% cheaper. > > So, it is better against full HP enemy and only worse on a < 25% HP enemy. And you can't use your ult to get them there, which is something you would do before. Dear sir clad in bronze armor, your theorycrafting is quite flawed. Quite amusingly, i don't even need to check your rank (of which i could not care less) to know you are writing nonsense, because it's actually obvious that you did not even read what i wrote. Never said that the new ult is better than the old, just that if you are packing AD/AS you can still a punch (ideally half your opponent) with your AAs and get good damage out of your ult with it's greater scaling. If you are AP, you don't have this option. Then, if you use to play Kog ADC and your unable to move into a good position to be an actually ADC instead than rely solely on your ult, well, that's your "whatever-your-rank-is" problem.
AD and AS is not enough to kill an enemy, you also need crit. A crit build only starts being really effective with 3 items. You have 25-30 minutes before this happens. How are you going to reduce your enemy with AD/AS before that when your enemies have AD scaling on 2-3 abilities, not just ult? I read what you wrote, and it is nonsense. I wouldn't be busting your "The new ult is so awwsome" theory if I didn't read it, right?
: Also you forgot that his w didn't cost Mana before the rework, which they did not revert. That hurts too, at least in the laning phase. I - Kog Main since S3 - put him aside for a while too since I see no reason whatsoever to play him atm. Cait outdamages him at pretty much every phase of the game and has a smilar range and a gap closer on top of that. And if I wanted to play Tri force on an adc, Ez seems to be the better choice. What bothers me the most is that Riot said: "Kog’Maw already had an answer to that question: be the glass cannon, demanding an entire team’s resources to support. So rather than create a distinct identity, we took a different approach: sharpen the one he already had." In his current form Kog does NOT fill the glass cannon niche, since you need to build Triforce on him, which makes him more tanky and mobile and leaves him with less dps than you'd wish. Twitch is the most glass cannon like champ out there at this moment.
Yeah, the free W ... I already forgot that, it was easy to forget with the double attack speed. As for the TriForce, it was quite usual on Kog even in previous season. It doesn't make him much tanky now, since he already lost those 119 HP :) I guess I'll try Cait or Jinx, they both are similar in range to Kog, but much stronger at the moment. I am also trying other roles.
Possible (EUW)
: Kog didn't build runaans anyway so thats not an indirect nerf :p
I remember building it last season, but I guess most players didn't. I also built it a lot in season 4 when Feral Flare still had stacking on-hit HP regen. For my builds, it is a strong indirect nerf unless I decide to build Infinity Edge and generally build him as AD/crit in which case I'd rather choose Cait.
: Biased poll at it's finest. I am not gonna participate that way since you didn't even give the option to say something positive about the state Kog'Maw is in right now. I don't know where you got your numbers, maybe giving a source? In the charts I looked at (lolking), I found that Kog'Maw actually has a win rate above 50% in diamond. That doesn't sound bad to me. And the change was actually just a nerf for players in "low elo" (even if I don't like that term). The reworked Kog'Maw forced you to stay in place to do maximum damage. In pro play, where movement is crucial, that was a death sentence for Kog'Maw. He just wasn't viable there. He was just viable for players who don't know how to move in battle, staying at a place just hitting on each other. In that scenario, Kog'Maw clearly won. But the game actually isn't supporting that play style. They removed the attack speed so Kog'Maw is still able to move around without losing damage, for the damage loss they gave him another damage increasing mechanic. For targets not moving you are dealing less damage, for targets moving you do more. That's fine. About the ult: it isn't meant to poke your enemy down from afar. It is (like many ults of adc's) an execute. If there is a low health target running away from you, that is the skill you use to finish him. In my opinion the change back was fine.
For statistics, look at champion.gg, pickban.com, lolalytics.com, it should be pretty much the same numbers on all those. You'll see a very bad win rate and a dropping pick rate, also ban rate going down. The statistics can differ by capturing a different timeframe, however. On the same servers, the win rate was around 54% last patch, with statistics being done in Plat+. Some consider everything below Challenger ELO hell, but Plat+ is decent, I'd say. There is one positive option in the poll, which I consider fitting for the current statistics - "someone finds a viable build". Maybe someone already did that. Maybe we'll soon find good builds on mobafire, lolking etc. and the pick rate goes back up slowly without any Riot's involvement. There were some item changes since season 5 end, so I guess there still may be some good build that wasn't invented in season 5. But with current builds, Kog fails. As for the poke / executioner: When Kog's damage was off the charts with reworked W, the poke was not that much needed. But it was the way how he dealt with his enemies in season 5 in early and mid game when he was still rather weak. Now he doesn't have that. And the "another damage increasing damage" they gave him? It is just the very same HP percentage that was there since Kog's release somewhere in Season 1. It was there all the time with the exception of patches 5.22 to 6.18 when it was fixed at 2% with different AP ratio. Do you bet your ELO on Kog if you think the change was fine? I see this account of yours is unranked, would you play Kog-only promos to prove he's good?
: > [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=bQLA3waK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-29T19:12:03.097+0000) > > And the change was actually just a nerf for players in "low elo" (even if I don't like that term). The reworked Kog'Maw forced you to stay in place to do maximum damage. In pro play, where movement is crucial, that was a death sentence for Kog'Maw. He just wasn't viable there. All those damn low elo scrubs in LCS playing that absolutely non-viable champ, such a shame {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
It is fun to read such comment from an unranked account. I'm plat.
: Actually the Q attack speed wasn't part of the rework... post rework koggie had the attack speed in the exact same place... that was actually just a balance change which got it removed... It also was moved to the W before it was removed which means that reverting the W thus also moves the attack speed back to where it was. The base attack speed was done due to the W and thus reverting the W ment that the attack speed changes had to be reverted but nothing else was touched besides that. So let me put it a different way... anything that was tied to the W was reverted... this includes the gating that riot had on it. Also remember that trinity force in general was flat out buffed for koggie so the small decrease in base ad isn't felt.
I assume we are still comparing to 5.21, right? So Trinity: +10% AS, +20% CDR, -3% MS, -10% crit, -30 AP, -5 AD. You say a "flat out buff"? The CDR is valuable, but other than that it is mostly a loss, as AP gives Kog extra damage from all abilities and even more percentage damage on his autoattacks As for Kog's stat decrease, to ease it for you to imagine it, play your favorite champ with all marks, one quint and three seals removed. Then curse the whole world when your enemy survives with 5 HP and you're dead.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vlasec,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=njfLurvA,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-29T15:58:58.513+0000) > > You are wrong, sir. If you are going AD, you probably DO CARE, too. In season 5, when some enemy was trying to zone you, you shelled him from afar for 40 mana or twice for 120, you waited 6 seconds and fired again. Now you have to wait ten seconds and you burn 25% more mana, also, Leona will likely use the taunt "Next time, try to leave a dent". And if you can half the opponent with AAs cause you have powerful AD/AS, you are probably going to deal more damage with your ult because its AD scalings are better. You probably won't have any MrPen, but generally an opponent will have already less Mr than Armor.
OK, I guess you assume a build with AD in it. It will need two AS/crit items at least, so you will get to something like 150 bonus AD. Now, Kog ult only scales from bonus AD, not from the base. So let's say you have a full build with 250 AD and lvl 16+. You crit for 600. Your ult goes as following: * New: 100 damage from extra AD, 150 base = 250. Doubled and tripled on low hp - 500, 750. * Old: 75 damage from extra AD, 320 base = 395. Not doubled or tripled, but 20% cheaper. So, it is better against full HP enemy and only worse on a < 25% HP enemy. And you can't use your ult to get them there, which is something you would do before. Dear sir clad in bronze armor, your theorycrafting is quite flawed.
Enjutsu (EUNE)
: Im not really being devil'd advocate, there's no real idea among players how the revert is(was it good or bad) they're still figuring him out, but Proppa did make a raelly bullshit statement that i coudn let slide. Riot probably didnt want old ult back because it was pretty toxic to play against And minor stat differences is just nitpicking
"Minor stat differences". OK, try playing your favorite champ and remove all marks, one quint and three seals. You will probably observe some minor KDA difference when your enemy kills you with 5 hp remaining. I knew up front that the revert is going to be bad, and now I have the win rates and pick rates to support that.
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Vlasec

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