: They basically took all the data of all league players and looked at it. Funny also how you say "oh someone with a point!" and upvotes it if he agrees with you, but if someone disagrees you at least seem very sceptical :D But yeah, I won't search for it, but riot made some articles about it and wrote in the forums a lot about those experiment.^^
No, I only said "oh someone with a point", because up until that point, all of the messages were flooded with "lightofseven" guy, who didn't even try to make sense whatsoever.
: ***
Good job, you 'demolished' me by denying my own points. The thing is, you think that I don't have anything else to say, when I actually do. You're just not worth my time, since I already wasted 2 hours on you. You think very highly of yourself, which blinds you from the truth. But here I am, talking to you like an idiot, I am. Good luck with your very intelligent life, my dude ;) You're being very hypocritical, by the way. You should probably fix that attitute of yours.
: ***
Personal attacks? What are you even talking about? Do you actually think you're smart, or something? You literally made no sense in any of your comments, saying that you don't care if he's talking or not, but if he got punished, you suddenly care? How is that even a point. You're talking about narrow-mindedness, when I can say the same thing to you, lad. You make no sense whatsoever, but you keep telling to yourself, that you're right. I won't respond to any of your comments later on, since you have nothing else productive to talk about.
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=00070001000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:41:11.865+0000) > > Ask what kind of question? For example: "Where are you from?". I don't see a point in answering such question, since it doesn't change the course of the game. > > You're so entitled, it's crazy. First, page, perfect example, and you answered completely wrong. Of you course you'll deny it, but it's the absolute truth. The more a language is complex, the more it can express. Pings is a wonderful language tailored for LoL and efficient more most cases. But there are corner cases it can't reach. You denying it does not change that truth.
What truth am I even denying? You were saying that he can't answer people's questions. So what? He gets asked if he can splitpush in botlane. He can either chose to go there, or not to go there. Him not being able to chat wouldn't change anything.
: ***
How is that valid for you, bruv? Please educate us, oh, the great one.
: But getting a perma-muted team mate on your team, would automatically mean that your chances are slimmer than the enemy's, since not all 5 of the members can properly communicate. If I get a player with abusive in-chat behaviour, I can report him, he will go through the tiers, and if he doesn't reform he gets the boot. If there is "only" the punishment that you're suggesting, a bunch of players who wouldn't be in the game any more, would still gain access to it, and flood your matches, with their inferior communication possibilities - and toxic attitude, which can be expressed without chat (as in soft-griefing etc.). The system works like this. You either reform, or you don't play any more. Your idea would suggest that certain aspects of toxicity should be tolerated to the infinite. A player is not toxic because he types toxic shit. His whole persona/attitude are toxic. He either needs to reform (within those punishment tier limits), or he will not be able to enjoy this game any more. I legit don't see any problems with this. Don't you agree ?
How is that toxicity being tolerated to the infinite, if it's getting people punished? I'm not saying that riot should remove it, but I'm saying that it should be somewhat changed. As I said in my previous comments, if that person starts inting, he will get properly punished, which means he will get banned.
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=00070001000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:41:11.865+0000) > > Ask what kind of question? For example: "Where are you from?". I don't see a point in answering such question, since it doesn't change the course of the game. > > You're so entitled, it's crazy. First, page, perfect example, and you answered completely wrong. Of you course you'll deny it, but it's the absolute truth. The more a language is complex, the more it can express. Pings is a wonderful language tailored for LoL and efficient more most cases. But there are corner cases it can't reach. You denying it does not change that truth.
Of course, not having a chat is a bad thing, but doesn't affect the team whatsoever. Per say, you're a jungler and your botlane is spam pinging for help. You're 1/4 of your help doing wolfs and you're planning to back after that. Now, you can either say "Sorry, can't really gank right now, since I'm low on health" or you can just not say anything, which wouldn't change the fact that you can't gank them.
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:44:24.657+0000) > > And the proof of that is where, exactly? Years of experiments? Don't question a system if you don't know its fouding principle. Begin with Lyte talks at GDC.
What kind of experiments are we talking about here. Someone's thought proccess behind getting banned for 1 month. He claimed that you will be toxic after you complete your 1 month ban, but if you get perma'd - you won't. I would like to see the "experiment" myself.
: But getting a perma-muted team mate on your team, would automatically mean that your chances are slimmer than the enemy's, since not all 5 of the members can properly communicate. If I get a player with abusive in-chat behaviour, I can report him, he will go through the tiers, and if he doesn't reform he gets the boot. If there is "only" the punishment that you're suggesting, a bunch of players who wouldn't be in the game any more, would still gain access to it, and flood your matches, with their inferior communication possibilities - and toxic attitude, which can be expressed without chat (as in soft-griefing etc.). The system works like this. You either reform, or you don't play any more. Your idea would suggest that certain aspects of toxicity should be tolerated to the infinite. A player is not toxic because he types toxic shit. His whole persona/attitude are toxic. He either needs to reform (within those punishment tier limits), or he will not be able to enjoy this game any more. I legit don't see any problems with this. Don't you agree ?
How are those chances slimmer? You have pings for a reason.
: ***
You're not explaining anything here. You're just saying that you don't want to play with a person who can't chat, without making any valid points. How is that not entitled? "I don't want to play with him, because, uhm, reasons"
: The problem is that Riot already tried what Br0nnie suggested: Just chat bans instead of perma bans for flame. No perma bans, but more bans for some weeks/bans. Riot Games has tons of material to work with and they worked together with some big institutions. The results were basically: Long chat bans doesn't work, as nearly all players just start trolling other people, if they can't flame them. Let's just assume for a second (to make it easier) that you can't create another account and I use toxicity as being toxic in chat or in the game (trolling) If there is something like a one month ban after the 14 day ban, the chance is really high (was above 90%) that you just start being toxic again after the ban and get banned again and again. But most players who just got a 14 day ban, won't be toxic again. You know that nearly every person who gets a one month ban will get banned again afterwards. So if you just don't ban him for one month, but permanently, he won't be toxic again. But if he gets his account back after one month, he will be toxic again. So banning him permanently instead of just one month means less toxicity in the game. So there is no reason for Riot to add additional bans, as everything will lead to more toxicity in the game. (also: multiple other games started to copy riot's punishment system) So what do we get here? Perma chat bans doesn't work, as they lead to more ingame toxicity. Multiple longer bans doesn't work, as they will also lead to more ingame toxicity. Now of course we have to look at the constraints I made at the beginning. Of course everyone cann create a new account. BUT we have to look at two things here: Firstly he will loose everything. If you give a playyer a one month ban... whatever, he can still just create another account and play on that until the ban is over. But with a permanent ban, you won't be able to play all the champions, skins or whatever you had on the old account. This is taken away from you. That is the punishment. Everytime you get perma banned, you have to start completely frmo the stretch and don't just play on a new account for a couple of weeks and then go back to your old account. Secondly Riot has a system implemented which helps finding multiple accounts of a person and at the beginning the punishment system is much harsher on smurf accounts. Hence the person will get banned faster again... and again... and again... Of course you can always create a new account, but at some time I would not have the energy to unlock all the stuff again after I did it multiple times already. So what do we learn here? Making a new account is a problem for both solutions - perma bans or no perma bans. Deleting perma bans won't change anything here. And Riot already tries to stop people from creating account after account.
> [{quoted}](name=Gnominator,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:40:15.778+0000) > You know that nearly every person who gets a one month ban will get banned again afterwards. > So if you just don't ban him for one month, but permanently, he won't be toxic again. > But if he gets his account back after one month, he will be toxic again. And the proof of that is where, exactly?
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=000700010001,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:36:00.506+0000) > > Imagine your toplaner can't talk, because of the chat restriction. You all play your game, as if it was a just another game of league of legends. > Your jungler pings or says "do baron". Everyone starts doing baron. > > Now, tell me. How is shen's teammates getting punished? When shen teammates ask him a question he can't answer with pings. You had examples. You're so entitled, it's crazy.
Ask what kind of question? For example: "Where are you from?". I don't see a point in answering such question, since it doesn't change the course of the game. You're so entitled, it's crazy.
: > [{quoted}](name=Br0nnie,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:00:58.495+0000) > > The problem is not the type of punishment so much but rather the amount of time. Permanent ban/chat restriction is not a good thing. Someone is swearing in chat ok ban them but 1 week/month/year don't perma ban .They just make other accounts. If you give ban 1 week let's say they probably won't bother to make another account. And next time they probably won't act that way. Sure. Let's punish other people from communicating with the guy not able to behave. Great idea. A driver abusing of high beam? Let's disable all the beams on his car and f\*ck whoever can't see him at night.
> Sure. Let's punish other people from communicating with the guy not able to behave. Great idea. Imagine your toplaner can't talk, because of the chat restriction. You all play your game, as if it was a just another game of league of legends. Your jungler pings or says "do baron". Everyone starts doing baron. Now, tell me. How is shen's teammates getting punished?
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=000500000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:24:01.027+0000) > > You're so entitled, it's crazy. You're so entitled, it's crazy. See, it works this way too.
"I choose not to have the player at all. It's even a better solution." Not have the player at all, even though he hasn't said anything, because he doesn't have a chat. Nice validation there, buddy. Anything else to say?
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=0005000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:19:55.129+0000) > > You don't get the point. Would you rather see a message "you ******", or don't see anything at all from the toxic player. I would choose the latter. I choose not to have the player at all. It's even a better solution.
You're so entitled, it's crazy.
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:16:23.495+0000) > > No, you didn't Just because you think you did, doesn't mean you actually did it. You literally keep trying to make points about yourself, when the subject is not even about you unable to chat. It's about people who are being toxic, leading them to be unable to chat. Comprende? > > "What about normal people not abusing the chat?" You randomly start talking about people who aren't toxic, when the subject is not even about them. How is that a valid point lmao. => > [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=000500000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:15:08.950+0000) > > Can't you try to understand that not only toxic people can be impacted by toxic people not able to chat?
"What about normal people not abusing the chat?" When did we actually talk about them? Please just leave the thread, since you don't have anything more to say. You're just being annoying at this point. You keep trying to change the subject, when there's no point in doing so.
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=00050000000000010000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:09:29.886+0000) > > Here, again, you're talking about people who are not toxic. That's not a valid point whatsoever. Please actually read the comment, and make a point that makes sense, please. I've been patient for proper responses this whole 40 minutes, but got none of it. > > You're being toxic -> You get chat restricted -> you keep being toxic = chat disable. (THIS DOESN'T APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO USE THE CHAT PROPERLY). > > Why is your every comment talking about yourself, and your ability to communicate? I'm talking about toxicity in general, that should be dealt with, not you. Can't you try to understand that not only toxic people can be impacted by toxic people not able to chat?
You don't get the point. Would you rather see a message "you ******", or don't see anything at all from the toxic player. I would choose the latter.
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:10:37.006+0000) > > You haven't made a proper point on this whole thread. I lost all of my patience with you tbh. I have. You denied it but I have. Your problem.
No, you didn't Just because you think you did, doesn't mean you actually did it. You literally keep trying to make points about yourself, when the subject is not even about you unable to chat. It's about people who are being toxic, leading them to be unable to chat. Comprende? "What about normal people not abusing the chat?" You randomly start talking about people who aren't toxic, when the subject is not even about them. How is that a valid point lmao.
: >My god, can you just please read it properly. I did. Let me ask you the same. >Becuase, again, they've tried this before and it failed miserably. and >Removing one avenue to inflict the maliciousness contained within this attitude problem, will just shift it towards others, as it has literally been tried, tested and shown. I mean, you can sit here and pin point over chat usage and what is deemed as fair and not fair for those who would be forced to play with these people. But that doesn't take away from the point, that this was tried, tested and failed. It's already been done.
Mate, I keep telling you that it wouldn't affect the people who actually use the chat. I'm talking about people who are being toxic and are being punished.
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T13:01:32.157+0000) > > This ticket was made talking about people who are toxic, not about the people who are using the chat for the right purpose. Why do you guys assume I'm talking about the community as a whole. I think, I clearly stated on mutiple of my responses, that I'm talking about toxicity as a whole. Not the whole chat usage, but ONLY toxicity. Toxic players have no place in LoL. So they are banned.
You haven't made a proper point on this whole thread. I lost all of my patience with you tbh.
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T12:34:16.571+0000) > > Validate your point then. What can chat help more with, than pings? Pings are fast and easy to understand. What's the point in having a chat, if you're toxic? No. League is a complex game, and needs complex way to communicate efficiently. Pings have two dimensions, and one is very limited. Chat allows far more things and reduced the interpretation, highly subject to mistakes. I have a chat and I want to be able to communicate with it with other people. That's one of the core of the game, then someone unable to use it should be kicked out of the game. And guess what?
Here, again, you're talking about people who are not toxic. That's not a valid point whatsoever. Please actually read the comment, and make a point that makes sense, please. I've been patient for proper responses this whole 40 minutes, but got none of it. You're being toxic -> You get chat restricted -> you keep being toxic = chat disable. (THIS DOESN'T APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO USE THE CHAT PROPERLY). Why is your every comment talking about yourself, and your ability to communicate? I'm talking about toxicity in general, that should be dealt with, not you.
Br0nnie (EUW)
: The problem is not the type of punishment so much but rather the amount of time. Permanent ban/chat restriction is not a good thing. Someone is swearing in chat ok ban them but 1 week/month/year don't perma ban .They just make other accounts. If you give ban 1 week let's say they probably won't bother to make another account. And next time they probably won't act that way.
Here's a dude who actually makes a point. Take an upvote you absolute madlad.
: > [{quoted}](name=CantSeeSlicki,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-06T12:38:34.185+0000) > > This is most likely the dumbest thing I've heard so far, there is no need for further details when the game satisfies that with the ping system. > You're handicapped from being overly detailed in chat because you were a toxic and you don't deserve the right to abuse the chat, being entirely BANISHED from the game on that account that you've probably dedicated time into because of CHAT-RELATED issues is off the roof. > I wholeheartedly mean it when I say remove the ability to personally mute someone, if you're going to make chat related issues a bannable offense. What about normal people not abusing the chat?
This ticket was made talking about people who are toxic, not about the people who are using the chat for the right purpose. Why do you guys assume I'm talking about the community as a whole. I think, I clearly stated on mutiple of my responses, that I'm talking about toxicity as a whole. Not the whole chat usage, but ONLY toxicity.
: >"This isn't about your personal experiences, but the community as a whole. Just because you're not using something doesn't make it irrelevant." That's not even a valid point, mate. How so? Your response to the limitation on chat is "I don't use it". That's great. What about me? I use it, quite frequently. Why am I suddenly limited on communications with my team mates, without any sort of input of choice from myself, when I've not done anything to put myself in that position. What about anyone else that uses it? You can't say it will work because "I don't use it". That's not how anything works. It's a completely valid point > I'm talking about people who are toxic, not about the people who actually use the chat for the right usage. But you're limiting communications. Even people with chat restrictions can communicate, and use it to coordinate, plan and strategise. If they don't then you can mute them, simple, but the choice is there to communicate, rather than having it revoked without choice by a "higher power". So yes, this does directly impact people who use chat for the right use. >How is you being toxic will limitate you, if you don't have chat? Becuase, again, they've tried this before and it failed miserably. Toxicity is not a "typing angry" problem. It's an attitude problem. It only manifests because you disassociate the reality of a real person being on the other side of the screen, as the vast majority of people would not act like this in a face to face scenario. Removing one avenue to inflict the maliciousness contained within this attitude problem, will just shift it towards others, **_as it has literally been tried, tested and shown._** I'm quite open to shifting my opinions on things, but not when there's hard data to show why it doesn't work.
My god, can you just please read it properly. I said that it's not a valid point to talk about yourself, since you don't get randomly punished for actually using the chat for the right purpose. I'm talking about the toxicity as a whole, since if you're being toxic, you don't need the chat. Why do you keep bringing this topic onto yourself to validate it? You're not being toxic in your games, right? Then don't try to make a point, as if you're punished here. "But you're limiting communications. Even people with chat restrictions can communicate, and use it to coordinate, plan and strategise. If they don't then you can mute them, simple, but the choice is there to communicate, rather than having it revoked without choice by a "higher power". So yes, this does directly impact people who use chat for the right use." No, how can you limit someone, that already has the chat restriction? I'm talking about the latter, where you get banned. My idea is that you shouldn't get banned for negative chat behavior.
: Be careful for what ? Is there an enemy ? Are they doing it ? Do you need a ward placed ? #How do you ping "ward botside pixelbush 1;22, fake leash it pls" ... hm ? Pings are good, but are limited. I don't type a lot, but when I do, it's because it can't be efficiently expressed with pings. So yea, you DO need chat. At least I do in diamond ELO.
Mate, you're talking about yourself, while I'm talking about toxicity in general. If you're toxic, then your chat gets removed. That's my point. If you're not toxic, you're fine, so you talking about your own gameplay doesn't really make sense whatsoever, since, as you said, you don't use it for toxicity, but put it to proper use.
Shamose (EUW)
: I want to Push out top, Then do baron, Reset and then let me split bot while the rest pushes mid. How do I tell that with just pings?
You use the ping "be careful". Easy as that.
: >You don't need the chat to coordinate with people, since you have all the pings already. I have multiple games, where everyone doesn't even talk for the rest of the game and only uses pings to move around, do objectives, etc,. You're missing the point. _You _ don't need it in every game sure, but you're unfairly limiting those who _do_ use it. This isn't about your personal experiences, but the community as a whole. Just because you're not using something doesn't make it irrelevant. >me getting banned, because I called out my teammates that were duo inting/afk. You don't get banned from one slip up unless: You used extreme language OR You've had previous restrictions, at which point you should know by now that other people breaking the rules is not a green light to do so as well. And the language you have to use to skip restrictions to get to a ban is all stuff that you should never really be saying here. You're going to have a lot better time getting over this if you accept responsiblity for it. No one makes you type things. No one makes your behavioural decisions for you. That's on you, and you alone. ------ To reiterate : this has already been trialled and deemed a failed project by Riot in the past. So I'm not just spurting nonsense for the fun of it, this has literally been tried and tested.
"This isn't about your personal experiences, but the community as a whole. Just because you're not using something doesn't make it irrelevant." That's not even a valid point, mate. I'm talking about people who are toxic, not about the people who actually use the chat for the right usage. How is you being toxic will limitate you, if you don't have chat?
: > [{quoted}](name=Beating a horse,realm=EUW,application-id=eZuvYsEr,discussion-id=HT0b2s9o,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-06-06T12:26:46.923+0000) > > since there's no real reason to actually have an ability to talk There is.
Validate your point then. What can chat help more with, than pings? Pings are fast and easy to understand. What's the point in having a chat, if you're toxic?
: You've not answered my question though. If a chat restriction doesn't stop someone from being toxic, what will? On top of that, again, this is a team game. Imagine ending up on a team with two people permanantly muted. That's going to make it incredibly difficult for you to co-ordinate movements or objectives. Which is now effectively punishing others who had nothing to do with it. I circle back to my point of: at the end of the day, don't be a jerk and there's no problem. I don't understand why that's such a hard concept to grasp sometimes
"If a chat restriction doesn't stop someone from being toxic, what will? " The perma chat disable will. You don't need the chat to coordinate with people, since you have all the pings already. I have multiple games, where everyone doesn't even talk for the rest of the game and only uses pings to move around, do objectives, etc,. About the jerk thing; I made this ticket as a response of me getting banned, because I called out my teammates that were duo inting/afk.
: Punishment system.
I didn't specify on how it's supposed to work, so here it is. If someone is being toxic, then just remove his ability to talk, since there's no real reason to actually have an ability to talk, since you have all of those pings that help you out. If the person somehow starts trolling games, just because he got chat restricted, then just put him into the category of inting and just ban him.
: > I mean, if a person is being consistantly negative in chat, then just remove his ability to actually make messages. They do mute people who are toxic. In fact, they do so twice before it escalates to a ban, unless extreme toxicity was used. So my question to you here is, that if we were to "only apply" chat restrictions to those who break that rule, what happens to people who keep doing it? Considering those that escalate to bans have already had these restrictions and ignored it. If there's no active deterrant it's going to keep happening. Coupled with the fact that this behaviour is typically tied to an attitude problem as well. Riot ran a trial a while back with permanent mutes, and the people involved in said trial often resorted to trolling or feeding to "vent" their frustration, instead of using text. On top of the fact that this is a team game and requires communication to a degree, so having someone with a permanent mute on your team is already putting you on the back foot. ----- I mean at the end of the day, don't be a jerk and there's no problem. I don't understand why that's such a hard concept to grasp sometimes
I mean, if someone switches from being toxic to trolling/inting. Then just ban him.
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Beating a horse

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