: We were comparing a specific game with 1 very good guy with 4 bad players VS 5 medium players. If you are talking in general, then yes of course the good guy is gonna climb faster. It's not like he is always gonna end up with 4 bad players. > They need to actually decided if this game is about working together or just carry alone. It can't be both There is a misconception here. RIOT already decided that it's a teamwork game and that you can only win as a team. Their choice is clear. The problem is, they want to remove some dependence on your teammates in soloQ. Because it's bad to have 4 people losing just because of 1 bad person. Because 1 bad player will always impact his team more than 1 good one. So they tried to lessen the dependence and help people solo carry. And that's where they messed up (from my point of view of course). I think they pushed it too much in this direction that right now, solo carrying matters much more than team play. You just pick {{champion:39}} you try to get 10kills, and you can win the game alone regardless of your teammates.
Idk about this. Yes they always tell us that you need teamwork to win but I believe it's just a campaign to decrease toxicity. As you said they decided to increase the solo carry potential, so their actions seem to be working against their "decision". They are gonna buff tanks and adc, but I don't know if that is coming from their decision to get us to work together or just because marksman players want their champion to be the best again. Also even if they actually decided to make this into a team only game, but the changes they make to the game go against this, then the problem is still there
: IMO only the marksman players are upset right now. You can pretty much play whatever you want, in whatever lane you want, and be able to do stuff. Things aren't as one-sided, as in the ex-ADC metas, or the lethality meta. It's a bit un-fun to play against a tower-defence simulator ADC, that clicks you once, doesn't kite, and doesn't die due to the ridiculous amounts of protection/peel that it gets. God forbid you wanna play an assassin champ, that does 1.5-2K burst in full build, and doesn't finish the ADC off, his utility falls off to 0. https://youtu.be/S8U1rZbc3MY?t=170 or same vid - 4:05 Check this one out for example. He literally sits, gets hit by everything, and gets a penta - being full HP when the "teamfight" is done. "Squishy class btw". - This is why I don't want another ADC-centered meta ... EVER.
Yeah this is true but things are bound to change. Riot is gonna buff tanks and adc. With enchanters (shield and heal support) items better the meta could become adc centred again. Remember that this is preseason, people don't try hard as much, especially supports players. Also since riot listens very carefully to what marksman players say they sure are gonna be buffed eventually. My point is that before riot decides if this is a team game or a solo carry game, some big portion of the player base is gonna be upset.
: > If it was for me I would obviously say the bruiser needs to win since he is better than any other individual in the enemy team. Actually you are wrong about that. I agree with you that as an outstanding individual, he deserves to win. But this is a team game and you need 5 people to win. You can't really make his team win just because of him, the game will be soo unhealthy. You need to control all lanes, objectives, do you teamfights right, avoid teamfights and splitpush when you should, etc etc. You can't expect 1 outstanding bruiser (or any other member) to compensate for the lack of 4 other people while the whole 5 members of the other team were fighting to win. Also, another thing that people forget is that they only compare the champions spells and positioning. It's not because a lulu ult is easier to use than a bruiser's kit that she was only doing medium effort. She contributes to the game with tons of other stuff, like warding the right places at the right time, being at the right place at the right time, protecting the right target etc etc. Her kit doesn't really mean that she will need medium efforts to win. Also, it's not like the enemy team have 4 supports... They also have bruisers and skillshots. And their members are also trying to have kills and make plays. You can't really simplify it to 4 people trying to let the adc stay alive I personally believe that the team that have the most good members should win. So if a team have 4 good people and the other one only 2, the first one should win.
The point is that he is actually gonna win more. If some single player is actually better he will still win more than half the games. I'm not complaining that you need to be a slave for the adc or course, nor that it promotes no skill champions to be played. The point is that if the game becomes too much focused on teamwork, then whether you win is gonna be decided on if you get teammates that you can play with or not. If the game considers a great individual to be of less skill than two average guys who are putting in medium effort, then why try and be good? As long as you are a little above average you will climb this way. There is no incentive to not just spam games hoping to get good teammates that can carry you. At least this is what I think. My original point remains tho. As long as riot tries to please everyone it is gonna piss everyone off. They need to actually decided if this game is about working together or just carry alone. It can't be both
: > The problem is that in league we don't recognize teamwork. Somebody gets it, finally. But people who think like that are a minority. It's not even a secret. The role is called "carry" for a reason and mutual dependencies make a team game. Right now Riot is constantly making promises to give players more "agency". That's a nice word for saying: we make games shorter, more cheesy and teamplay less rewarding. So then players complain about the perceived "too much damage" and short games, but they still ask for more "agency". Boo %%%%ing hoo let me solo carry games. I remember during the so called "ardent censer meta" I found myself constantly reminding people that ADC+ support or bot lane in general have an inherent advantage over other lanes because it's 2 players and teamwork. Didn't matter. The complainers still got their changes and idk how many ADC reworks later we are basically still dealing with the same paradox. Riot is just going back and forth at this point. The changes they do are meaningless and lack an actual final aim. Riot needs to decide where they want to take this game. Either a team game or clown fiesta with 5 wannabe solo carries on each team. You can't have both. There actually is a huge market hole for healer / utility champions but the problem is again, when utility becomes good then teamwork and tactics become superior, you immediately have players QQing because they can't just steamroll everything on their own.
Exactly, Riot is trying to appease everyone but they end up pissing both types of players. Of course, they want to find a balance, even tho they cannot because in doing so they get more people to play the game. Until they tell us directly that this is game is just about teamwork or is just about being a solo carry god pulling ur brain damaged team we will keep this game that is worse for all.
: Dude... it's a TEAM game, emphasis on team. Like football you can't have a team full of attackers. You have to have a goalkeeper and defenders who main do that. God forbid you have to also rely on your team in a team game
Its a team game but in football u play with people you and probably are friends with. I get that you need teamwork but winning shouldnt be about wheter you got the good adc this game or they got it. The skills of the individual should be considered, else this isnt a competitive game anymore and its just about which team gets the skilled botlane
: Amen ! Finally someone has spoken the truth. You can't imagine how much I've been trying to explain this to people. Adcs are still very strong, they just need a real support and a team around them. Having a {{champion:63}} supp is not helping at all. The real problem is the champions popularity and people's mentality. Everybody want to pick a squishy champion that deals tons of damage from top to support. It's only normal that everybody will pop like bubbles and people are gonna start complaining "There is too much damage "Adcs are weak". Play a real team comp and everything will work really fine. Team play will always win. But yeah, everyone wants to do flashy plays nowadays and things are more focused around cool champs like {{champion:39}} and {{champion:84}} . In my opinions, I think it's quite healthy for adc's to be mindless point a click. Because their role is to be marksmen that hits you from afar and can deal constant damage in opposite to assassin's or mages who relies on burst and don't really mind dying after they finished their whole spell rotation. Adc's only become good late game so if the enemies aren't able to beat them in their weaker state (early game / mid game), they should deserve to be stronger and win since they played smarter and reached their win condition. I believe this is where team comps and team play comes in play about how to reach your win condition and how to deal with the enemies.
The problem, coming from an ex support main, is that playing solo carries like {{champion:39}} and {{champion:84}} isn't only just more fun, it's better. Whenever I play support I'm putting myself into the hands of a stranger. Even if I'm the best support in the world (and I'm not, not yet at least) and I get my adc 10/0/2, if he is a %%%%%%ed he will get caught out, he will have bad positioning. My do I need to rely on someone else when I could just play {{champion:266}}, go 8/1 in the lane and carry from there. At least now there is no drawback, I will destroy the adc with 1 Q plus passive auto, and their {{champion:45}} "support" won't be able to save them. One thing that could be done is giving supports the POSSIBILITY to not only be the support of the adc but also of other lanes. This sounds like a nightmare for an adc but hear me out. If I, as a support, were able to be the entire team's support, I would know for a fact that at least one of my teammates is gonna be at least competent. This way I would still rely on someone else, but the odds wouldn't be as much against me as they are now. This will get much more people, and much more skilled people, to play support. This way as long as you are a good adc you would find a good support much more often than you do now, where everyone who is playing support is either sleeping on the pc or playing {{champion:157}} support.
: Well, with the new ADC item changes, and certain tank jungler buffs, we're heading for another "fun" ardent-like meta. Can't wait to play support top/support mid/tank jungle with locket/ and support support, while an autofill ADC is drooling all over its keyboard, and the whole team's faith is in his hands, while we don't even have fun playing the game. Or being 10/0 with a bruiser, and failing to win, since the 7K hp LULU ult kog clicks me while lighting a cigarette with one hand + playing the drums with the other hand, and I can't remove more than 30% of his overheal+bt+locket+tripple shield. I'll prolly skip playing ranked till that shit blows off, hopefully in midseason. LUL
I know it seems that way but it isn't that simple: all the support and tanks top/jungle are actually trying to keep their brain-damaged adc alive. Of course, individually they are trying less than a 10/0 bruiser who needs to think about hitting skillshots, when to engage, when to use their defensive abilities, ecc ecc. The problem is that riot needs to decide who deserves to win: a whole team putting in medium effort and skills to keep the adc alive and well, or the guy playing a bruiser who is going above and beyond to carry his %%%%%%ed team. If it was for me I would obviously say the bruiser needs to win since he is better than any other individual in the enemy team. The sooner we answer to this question the quicker we can get the game in a position where some of us will find annoying, but at least doesn't upset everyone like the situation is right now
: I dont like playing "cool" champs. I like being support and winning the game with utility. Making my team win that way is much more satisfying that being the 1 v 9 midlaner who actually was carried by their support You can't play a "REAL" support or tank if armour items are shit. Everyone just builds damage. Even all the Malphites ive seen build AP which is ridiculous. Nobody feels that armour and hp are worth anymore, which leads to this clown fiesta of 1 shotting people. Make itemizing in armour worth it again and we might start seeing real tanks and supports again. I believe though atm tank supports suffer the most. It should not be appealing for tanks to build full AP. Tanks should build tank and feel tanky. And as the old saying went "Dont focus the tank". Nobody saying that anymore. Doesnt matter who you focus. They blow up as fast as everyone else
The thing is that tank used to be mindless CC machine with no real gameplay. Riot tried to solve this with the tank rework and by making Ornn, which is undoubtedly the hardest tank to play. However then competitive teams abuses these new tanks since their only drawback of being harder to play doesn't apply to them. So then riot has to keep these guys in the shitter, main Ornn and Sejuani here. Then people simply ask themselves: why should I try to play tanks when everything destroys me and I also need to rely on someone else in my team to finish off with my damage.
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Cyber Gabibbo

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