Câstiél (EUW)
: Excuse me, but nothing in that paragraph explains that that the MMS is rigged on a win/loss streak. This is written: > You’re winning a lot, and the matchmaker is placing you against stronger opponents That means, if you win more than you lose, **you're climbing and your MMR is increasing, meaning you will play against better players.** That's not interfering with your progress, that's literally your progress. The system matches you against better oponents in that case to see if you are as good as said opponents. If you are, you will continue having a good winrate, so your visual rank will move in the direction of your MMR slowly. The system can't work differently? * You win a lot, so you get matched against (and with) better players * You lose a lot, so you get matched against (and with) worse players Where exactly is the rigged part? > the MMS throws in unnranked players randomly But unranked players have to start somewhere? If you match them against other unranked players, you'll never know in which elo they belong, since you wouldn't know it about the other players either. Besides, unranked accounts almost always start in bronze / iron, and I have yet to see games where a fresh account get's matched in a gold, let alone plat lobby. If an account is unranked, but was dia last season, it shouldnt be matched against bronze players though. We're talking only about new accounts, on which ranked was never played.
> [{quoted}](name=Câstiél,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LTOOqqRB,comment-id=0013000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-23T11:48:32.905+0000) > > Excuse me, but nothing in that paragraph explains that that the MMS is rigged on a win/loss streak. > This is written: > > That means, if you win more than you lose, **you're climbing and your MMR is increasing, meaning you will play against better players.** That's not interfering with your progress, that's literally your progress. The system matches you against better oponents in that case to see if you are as good as said opponents. If you are, you will continue having a good winrate, so your visual rank will move in the direction of your MMR slowly. > > The system can't work differently? > > * You win a lot, so you get matched against (and with) better players > * You lose a lot, so you get matched against (and with) worse players > > Where exactly is the rigged part? > are you for real?, ok let me explain it easier to you, lets say boxing, you're a flyweight and you win 5 matches, good for you, suddenly you are being matched against a middleweight {{sticker:sg-ahri-1}} , i can tell you right now, that will never happen in real XD, vice versa too middleweight vs flyweight, its what the MMS is doing, you are climbing naturally, you win several matches consecutively, and BAM, MMS throws you up at plat 1, even though you're silver IV, get the picture? the MMS isn't placing you against stronger opponents because it thinks you belong there, it does so to even out your winrate, if you read that further, it states that the MMS matches you against player several DIVISIONS higher/lower **''If you’re on a big win streak, you may even start to see opponents several divisions above you.''**, you are winning too much and too fast, and vice versa, and 2 things tell you the truth: 1: its only 1 match, meaning that even if you win that match the MMS throws at you, after that match you will get matches with players of your own divison again.....(unless you continue your win/lose streak untill you do the opposite of your streak), not the divison of that 1 match, so what was the point in throwing you higher/lower? 2: consecutive wins/loses don't reflect your skill, you can win/lose because of : smurfs/trolls/afkers/unranked players/flamers/rigged MMS throwing irons - plats at you, so why interfere with players on a streak? so again i ask, why does the MMS interfere with natural climbing/dropping? when you get nothing out of it.....? > But unranked players have to start somewhere? If you match them against other unranked players, you'll never know in which elo they belong, since you wouldn't know it about the other players either. Besides, unranked accounts almost always start in bronze / iron, and I have yet to see games where a fresh account get's matched in a gold, let alone plat lobby. > If an account is unranked, but was dia last season, it shouldnt be matched against bronze players though. We're talking only about new accounts, on which ranked was never played. i mean they should let every unranked player start at iron/bronze, but not randomly, it isn't very difficult to let every player start a the start, and let them climb up naturally, there is no need to test these players O.o or throw them in random matches, knowing they can make you lose the match -.-
: Thats exactly what the graph shows, thats why i made it.
> [{quoted}](name=Sona Crushes All,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=fJq4c9tl,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2020-01-23T10:36:21.720+0000) > > Thats exactly what the graph shows, thats why i made it. that is not what the graph shows, that graph is meaningless lol, you don't know why players lose or win matches, there are too many factors, and riot allows many of them like trolls/afkers/smurfs, and riot implemented 2 factors themselves too, unranked players and rigged MMS by slinging you higher or lower based on win/lose streak, even though a win/lose streak doesn't tell anyone why you won or lose consecutively, the MMS shouldn't interfere, period.
: {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
> [{quoted}](name=DragonessOfMagic,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-24T05:33:31.885+0000) > > {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} you should stop pretending you're a shrink {{sticker:sg-poppy}}
Sefiroz (EUW)
: It's not twisting words in any sense. I'm simply saying that 2+1 is not 2. That and even should your odd reasoning work people still win 5-10 games in a row on a regular basis. Losses too, for that matter.
> [{quoted}](name=Sefiroz,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2020-01-23T12:19:42.231+0000) > > Well, you can keep saying the color red is blue if you want pal. > > It ain't gonna help ya moving on, though. why are you hitting yourself? why are you hitting yourself? why are you hitting yourself? {{sticker:sg-kiko}}
16 Chars (EUW)
: Typical player that started playing sett and gets some juicy KD/A's then proceeds to make a boards post to try and escape him from nerfs. He will 101% get nerfs to his W after the new mecha skin has been sold enough.
> [{quoted}](name=16 Chars,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=KmEMl5mk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2020-01-24T09:18:24.814+0000) > > Typical player that started playing sett and gets some juicy KD/A's then proceeds to make a boards post to try and escape him from nerfs. > > He will 101% get nerfs to his W after the new mecha skin has been sold enough. they don't realize sett chunks hard with damage and gains a BS amount of shield and health, that allows him to turn around ANY fight.
: Because of this https://imgur.com/a/v0yI4hp So basically if you start with people who are much worse than you, you will win more more games and your win rate will be 70+% for e.g As you climb, the skill gap narrows down meaning you lose more games As you get closer to people of the same skill you reach a 50% win rate You are literally playing against people your own skill level. This is like racing against your own Ghost on a race track. To do better and climb, you have to improve your game play. Improving your game play RAISES that black TRUE SKILL BAR meaning you can start climbing and getting 55+% win rates until you reach your new peak.
> [{quoted}](name=Sona Crushes All,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=fJq4c9tl,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2020-01-23T06:08:28.574+0000) > > Because of this > > https://imgur.com/a/v0yI4hp > > So basically if you start with people who are much worse than you, you will win more more games and your win rate will be 70+% for e.g > As you climb, the skill gap narrows down meaning you lose more games > As you get closer to people of the same skill you reach a 50% win rate > > You are literally playing against people your own skill level. > This is like racing against your own Ghost on a race track. > To do better and climb, you have to improve your game play. > > Improving your game play RAISES that black TRUE SKILL BAR meaning you can start climbing and getting 55+% win rates until you reach your new peak. lol no, the MMS matches you higher after a winstreak and lower after a losing streak, so after X amount of consecutive wins/loses you suddenly get matches several divisions higher or lower, its litterally in the matchmaking guide, and what the OP is experiencing, here, read ''climbing the ladder'' https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide
: Well first and foremost: Win and Lose streaks are down to psychology. While the matchmaking is a coinflip, mostly thanks to it being unbalanced and having only 1 metric instead of multiple, they still tend to be around same elo. Smurfs are a problem. They influence matchmaking in ways they don't even imagine. Or don't care. However, once you get on a win streak or lose streak, thats where your brain comes in. When smurfs influence the game, you basically have no impact. So there aren't any win streaks/lose streaks, but the matches go randomly, and they are usually over before 20 minutes. However, when it comes down to win/lose streaks, thats mostly psychology. When you win you get positive feedback from brain. Your negative feedback is minimal and does not affect your decisions that much. However, as with negative feedback, positive feedback can put you into a cycle where you stay not only clear-headed, but also less stressed are more alert. When you lose you get negative feedback from brain. If you don't look at your own gameplay, you start looking mistakes from others, getting more negative feedback and ultimately ending up in a negative cycle. Thats the simplest explanation
> [{quoted}](name=DragonessOfMagic,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2020-01-22T19:10:26.812+0000) > > Well first and foremost: > Win and Lose streaks are down to psychology. While the matchmaking is a coinflip, mostly thanks to it being unbalanced and having only 1 metric instead of multiple, they still tend to be around same elo. > Smurfs are a problem. They influence matchmaking in ways they don't even imagine. Or don't care. > so are trolls/afkers/unranked players. > However, once you get on a win streak or lose streak, thats where your brain comes in. When smurfs influence the game, you basically have no impact. So there aren't any win streaks/lose streaks, but the matches go randomly, and they are usually over before 20 minutes. However, when it comes down to win/lose streaks, thats mostly psychology. > > When you win you get positive feedback from brain. Your negative feedback is minimal and does not affect your decisions that much. However, as with negative feedback, positive feedback can put you into a cycle where you stay not only clear-headed, but also less stressed are more alert. > When you lose you get negative feedback from brain. If you don't look at your own gameplay, you start looking mistakes from others, getting more negative feedback and ultimately ending up in a negative cycle. > > Thats the simplest explanation losing can actually motivate you, and winning can actually bore you, your point is? i don't see how any of it is relevant to this discussion O.o its about how the MMS throws you up or down, for 1 match, to hope you win or lose, to get you to a 50% winrate, since you are climbing/dropping too fast, and besides everyone reacts differently to a win/lose streak, i for one am unaffected by it, some become exctatic, and others depressed.
Sefiroz (EUW)
: It's not twisting words in any sense. I'm simply saying that 2+1 is not 2. That and even should your odd reasoning work people still win 5-10 games in a row on a regular basis. Losses too, for that matter.
> [{quoted}](name=Sefiroz,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-22T11:47:24.722+0000) > > It's not twisting words in any sense. > yes you are. > I'm simply saying that 2+1 is not 2. > complete irrelevant in this discussion, nowhere did i state 2+1 = 2 > That and even should your odd reasoning work people still win 5-10 games in a row on a regular basis. > > Losses too, for that matter. lol? thats BS, wins and loses are irregular, especially with this MMS.
Câstiél (EUW)
: > and besides its a fact the MMS riggs the game hard. Can you link me a source with some evidence to that fact?
> [{quoted}](name=Câstiél,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LTOOqqRB,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2020-01-22T13:36:40.738+0000) > > Can you link me a source with some evidence to that fact? https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide there you go, read ''climbing the ladder'' at the bottom, the MMS puts you higher or lower on a win/lose streak, thats interfering with your progress, and synonym to interference is rigging, on top of that for some reason the MMS throws in unnranked players randomly, that too is rigging, i don't see why any of that has to be..... new players can start at the start, iron/bronze or silver and climb/drop naturally, instead of randomly joining matches.
: Misconceptions of League, and why you are not climbing.
> [{quoted}](name=Sona Crushes All,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=LTOOqqRB,comment-id=,timestamp=2020-01-21T21:45:20.111+0000) > **WHAT DEFINES SKILL IN LEAGUES MATCHMAKING AND RANKING SYSTEM?** > > There is only 1 indicator, and that is killing the Nexus. > If you beat the enemy, whatever you did that game, no matter how messy, worked. > Your k/d/a, CS, ward score, damage etc are irrelevant, they literally do not matter. > > The objective of the game is to kill the Nexus before the enemy kills yours. > > There is no other reliable or accurate way to gauge your skill based on numbers obtained from the finished game. > So the only way to gain LP is to kill the Nexus. > Never assume stats mean you did better or worse than team mates. > skill is determined by performance, winning or losing is not a factor in it...... you can perform better than your opponents and still lose, doesn't mean you're bad or worse, or better than, it just means you performed better at the moment, or were just unlucky, skill = strategy/tactics, if what you say is true than any player can simply afk, than wait untill their team opened a path to the nexus, use TP and destroy the nexus, and according to you have skill........ even though said player did nothing to contribute other than destroying a nexus -.- stats simply show how you performed, you should't seperate all the stats and look at them individually, but alltogether, take support lane for instance, i'm main support and i tend to have negative kda, like most supports, but my warding number is quadruple that of the rest of the team, my damage is lower yes, but i did contribute in keeping my team alive, or used CC to help them kill, or mitigate damage to soften blows, or aided them in objectives gain, if kda is the only positive stat, it might mean you are good at killing, but thats it, thats how you try to contribute, but you should also realize that it can cripple your team, going back at warding score, that at itself means nothing, but a map that shows where was warded in combination does. > **I CANNOT CLIMB BECAUSE THE SYSTEM MATCHES ME WITH BAD PLAYERS** > 2 - MYTH: RIOTS SYSTEM IS DESIGNED TO FORCE PEOPLE DOWN TO A 50% WIN RATE, THIS MEANS YOU CANNOT CLIMB. THEREFORE RIOT GIVES ME BAD TEAMS TO STOP ME HAVING WIN STREAKS > > No... you will climb if you can beat the people you are matched against. > You only stop climbing when you lose as many games as you win. This is where you land at your current level of real skill. If you literally played yourself 1000 times, you would win roughly 500 of those games. 50%... > Riot are not making you lose games, or giving you bad team mates. They are ratcheting up your MMR as you progress and slowing down as you lose games. > lol? the MMS places you higher or lower after consecutive wins, the MMS does this to break your streak and bring you down or up a notch to 50% winrate, thats rigging, on top of that is possible to get unranked players in your match, a choice riot made, so this makes unfair and unbalanced teams...... there is no need for either to exist in the MMS, so no not a myth, but FACT, it doesn't mean you can't climb, it means its harder to climb, and takes longer, which is what riot wants, because riot doesn't want too many challengers, riot also chooses to ignore trolls and smurfs, they stated its too complicated, but truth is, that it isn't..... > 3 - being at your skill level means of course you stop climbing. This gives people the feeling that they are HARD STUCK. > You can grind 1000 games and not move, and naturally people ask the question... why am i still stuck? > Psychologists will explain that people are inherently bias when it comes to appraising their own ability, and also downplay their inability to perform complex tasks, especially those which they are passionate about. > > This leads people to assume that they cannot climb because the SYSTEM, or the FEEDERS, or the PICKS from their team are to blame. > > In reality you are where you currently belong, and blaming the above often leads to TOXICITY. > People flame and blame, int, AFK in response to their own inability to win games, because they perceive all of the fault to lie outside of their hands. > > And yes i have literally spent 2 days hearing from people convinced that League is a coin flip, and has nothing to do with skill. > Despite this players being bronze, silver, gold and plat... yet all stuck at different specific skill levels... because the game chose to stick them there. > Or... that each of them is at the place where the bad players live. > > Yes logically when you contrast their stories, it makes no sense. > In reality - everyone gets stuck somewhere. false, no one belongs in any divison O.o, it all comes down to willingness to learn, and ofcourse players aren't wrong when they state that they are stuck when, almost every match pairs you up with trolls and afkers, i think we all experience this almost every day we play, and psychologist are pseudo scientists, take their words with a grain of salt~ and besides its a fact the MMS riggs the game hard. > **THE RANKED SYSTEM IS BROKEN AND NEEDS REPLACING** > > If the following statement is false, then i agree that the current system is broken and should be fixed- > > _BRONZE PLAYERS ARE BETTER THAN IRON, SILVER ARE BETTER THAN BRONZE, GOLD ARE BETTER THAN SILVER, PLAT ARE BETTER THAN GOLD...and so on_ > > If you can find me an example of a high Elo players regularly getting stuck in low elo, then i will agree the system is broken. > Until then, i think the ladder WORKS at doing its job of sorting players based on skill. i have players in my list that said they were hard stuck in bronze/silver for a while, even though they were platinum+ last season -.- > **YOU EITHER GET CARRIED OR YOUR TEAM FEEDS** > > You cannot control 4 people on your team, stop trying to tell them what to do. Mute them if you have too. > > NEVER ARGUE WITH ANYONE > > It is a well known fact than in over 50 years of the internets existence, nobody has EVER won an argument. > It is absolutely futile to ever convince anybody that they are wrong about any subject, even when you have a mountain of proof. > Nobody in solo queue will ever stop and say 'You sir are correct, and i bow down to your mastery of this game' > IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO WASTE ANY TIME TYPING > > JUST PLAY THE GAME AND IGNORE THE PETTY INSULTS wrong, i win alot of arguments, and it depends on how you bring it, i tend to joke back, and they appreciate this often, you shouldn't try to force players, or tell them what to do, but you can give them advice and tips, but state the words ''advice'' and ''tip'' or they won't know, its not futile at all to cnvince players, and sometimes you don't need words either, keep performing well an sometimes said players that give up or grief come around and start playing normally again, don't try to discuss things in a match O.o it will escalate lol. > **WHAT CAN I ACTUALLY DO TO IMPROVE, AND WHO THE F$%K ARE YOU ANYWAY?** > > Im just a Sona OTP from EUW. I was D3 before the s10 reset and my highest rank was a modest 18,000/3.5m. > I am not saying i am amazing at this game, i am definitely not. > > But what strategies helped me more than anything? > These are all EQUALLY important. > > 1 - playing as many ranked games as i could find time for. > 2- playing solo > 3- playing easy champs with reliable spells, avoiding high skill champs > 4- sticking to as few champs as possible, 3 max, mainly 1 in my case > 5- muting team mates when they start flaming/arguing > 6- never worrying about early game. The game is decided by team fights > 7- learning as much about champions, items, interactions, game systems as possible. JUST READ LOLWIKI PAGES UNTIL YOU KNOW EVERYTHING > 8- experiment with builds and items, learn your main champions inside out, learn how smooth build paths are and understand your gold income > 9- practice mechanics, learn how much damage you can take, how much damage you can do have a solid feel for what you are capable of achieving > 10- clean up your mechanics > 11- improve your mechanics > 12- push your mechanics > > Every role has to do something mechnical constantly. Jg has to farm camps, so practice clearing and find ways to get ahead. > Laners have to CS, so farm in practice mode and aim for score with doran and AA's whilst poking a dummy > Supports need to learn to poke/engage safely and effectively. > > TRADING is huge. LEARN EVERY MATCH UP AND HOW TO TRADE AS EFFICIENTLY AS POSSIBLE > Learn to dodge abilities, read spell animations, keep an eye on enemy mana, enemy levels, and approximate their level xp in your mind. The more you know the more power you have to make good decisions in a split second. > > > The above all compounds into you becoming a solo-queue monster. > > I will not be debating anymore here, because it took up a few days of my time for not much productive output. > But i hope it results in a helpful post for all you guys out there. > > You can always add me for a chat on EUW. > > I might update this if i see a lot of comments bringing up things i missed. number 2, lol you can play together as well, this is a team game O.o duo can be succesfull if you see this through. number 3 you can play practise or normal matches to improve your play with said champions number 4 please no, just play with whatever you want just practise, having many champions allows you to counter pick. number 5 no need to mute unless its extreme really, i have a thick skin i imagine others might not, i just tend to shrug it off or joke around it, it often works, if it doesn't, sure you can mute for the rest i agree O.O
: yhea I don't agree with that. Win streaks can happen. lose streaks can happen. It's how you view it. I do agree that matchmaking is rubbish, but not because of the reasons you presented
> [{quoted}](name=DragonessOfMagic,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2020-01-21T21:19:03.304+0000) > > yhea I don't agree with that. Win streaks can happen. lose streaks can happen. It's how you view it. > > I do agree that matchmaking is rubbish, but not because of the reasons you presented yeah thats not my point, my point is that the MMS is made to interfere with a player on a win/lose streak, meaning the MMS is attempting to break the streak by placing the player higher or lower than their MMR, on top of that the MMS is also placing unranked players randomly, i'm not t saying win/lose streaks can't happen, sure they happen and they can happen because you're doing good/bad, or beause you/the opponents surrendered early or because you/they had afkers/trollers, or because you/they had smurfs etc, its what happens with the matchmaking when it detects win/lose streaks. and what reasons are those?
: It’s not propaganda... propaganda is telling everyone riot rigs matchmaking, what I’m doing is explaining to misguided people what matchmaking actually is. Seriously how is this so hard to understand... matchmaking is designed to put you against players of equal skill to you, that’s the entire point... this isn’t rigging it, this is what matchmaking is supposed to do. Seriously how can you all look at a system that’s in most online games, and one that’s doing what it’s meant to be doing, then freak out that riots purposefully ruining your games... it’s just scapegoating
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=00000000000000020000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2020-01-21T17:36:15.111+0000) > > At no point did I say that... 3 noobs and 2 pros isn’t a balanced team especially as no guarentee the pros go up against each other > lol admitting that matchup is balanced {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} {{sticker:sg-kiko}}, and wondering why players call you out for propaganda. > Because getting two sides to be perfectly in line is impossible, as I said in the first comment you can’t predict the future. > its not impossible, riot just takes a too broad spectrum. > Two players might be evenly matched, but one might make a mistake causing the other one to snowball... that’s not match making’s fault or riot’s, it’s the player. The team that makes mistakes loses and yes often it’s in spectacular fashion games are very snowbally at the moment. > than who'se fault is that? oh wait right riot made it that way .o. besides that not what's being discussed here, its obvious there are players being matched unfairly. > There’s too many factors going into the outcome of a game to do matchmaking properly, all riot can do is try... like I’ve said luck plays too high of a factor in everything to properly predict things if it weren't for the ''unranked players'' and ''consecutive win/lose matchfixing'' and ''ignoring trolls/smurfs''.
: It’s not propaganda... propaganda is telling everyone riot rigs matchmaking, what I’m doing is explaining to misguided people what matchmaking actually is. Seriously how is this so hard to understand... matchmaking is designed to put you against players of equal skill to you, that’s the entire point... this isn’t rigging it, this is what matchmaking is supposed to do. Seriously how can you all look at a system that’s in most online games, and one that’s doing what it’s meant to be doing, then freak out that riots purposefully ruining your games... it’s just scapegoating
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=0000000000000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-21T17:23:01.032+0000) > > It’s not propaganda... propaganda is telling everyone riot rigs matchmaking, what I’m doing is explaining to misguided people what matchmaking actually is. > riot is telling us they rigg it, and you deny the facts and explain nothing constructive. > Seriously how is this so hard to understand... matchmaking is designed to put you against players of equal skill to you, that’s the entire point... this isn’t rigging it, this is what matchmaking is supposed to do. > Seriously how can you all look at a system that’s in most online games, and one that’s doing what it’s meant to be doing, then freak out that riots purposefully ruining your games... it’s just scapegoating and too bad it isn't happening, if only it did, so matchmaking is supposed to suddenly throw you higher or lower based on consecutive wins even though the reason for wins/loses is unclear? hmmmmm so that means you are being slung up or down is fair? and the outcome doesn't really alter anything, and you still need to climb afterwards because your MMR doesn't magically change after that match? {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
: > your MMR doesn't alter when the MMS throws you several divisions higher, than your MMR actually is, i explained this several times and yet you still deny it O.o, the MMS does not place you with players with the same MMR as you, the MMS looks at TOTAL team MMR. ''The team’s average MMR is the same, but one team has five roughly-equal teammates and the other team has a few very highly-ranked players and a few lower ones.'' The funny thing is this is exactly what I’ve been saying this entire time, you’ve just not been listening. And I’m not denying anything, I’m litterally telling you this is how matchmaking is supposed to work and how it works in pretty much every game... as you start winning a lot you get placed with harder players because you are winning too often vs your current, if that then proves too hard it lowers again until your against players who are equal skill to you... you know like a match makin system should. > thats not what rigging means -.-, rigging means to manipulate something, or interfere with something, and thats exactly what the MMS is doing -.- a player on a win/lose streak gets manipulated, why can't the MMS let them climb or drop naturally? But that’s not manipulating or interfering... it’s a system that’s entire point is to match you vs players of equal skill to you acknowledging your skill level has changed and changing you opponents accordingly.... that way players who your against aren’t horrifically outskilled or your not outskilled, and s your not climbing just because your opponents are too weak... you know how it’s supposed to work. > no its not making anything better, and thats matchfixing not matchmaking. It’s matchmaking, it’s recognising your skill level and putting you vs opponents to challenge you. > it doesn't match you with players of equal mmr, thats the whole point, how can a sliver V have the same MMR as a gold 1? the MMS just equalizes the TOTAL MMR of the team, and yet you are the one trying to create confusion, and lying/twisting things.... you even use half quotes rather than what is said fully to take it out of context. If a silver VI is the same MMR as a gold 1 that means either two things... that silver VI belongs in gold and thus will win much more LP and loose very little as they climb, or that gold 1 belongs in silver and then LP is reversed. But this way that silver isn’t demolishing their games without a challenge, or that gold isn’t ruining game and their different LP gains will have their ranks become what their skill level shows it is. > they could put more effort in it, they absolutely do nothing about trolls , its not about anticipation, its about what they do when they DEFINITELY know players are trolling...... They don’t do nothing with trolls... plenty of cases of trolls getting banned... most ten to go quietly though They do need to do more, but you can’t see some of the massive shit shows surrounding trolls getting banned and say they never do. > or they could improve the game properly, fix the MMS, and get rid of that decay, create a mode so that any elo can do ranked premade and bear the consequences of facing off against stronger opponents etc etc. Not a whole lot to fix with MMS... remember there’s a reason these ‘issues’ exist in every online game match making itself is just not anywhere near what online gaming needed it to be and it’s likely never gonna to be... league’s is among the better one on the market, take that how you’d like. Decay is there so that a counts in high elo have to play to stay... which helps combat brought or elo boosted accounts (get to diamond with boosting or buying a diamond account, then never play ranked and stay In diamond all season) And it’s not the consequence of stronger opponents... having a premade of a bronze and a diamond in a diamond level game is unfair for the other 3 players... but hypocritical wanting better match making then wanting a mode to mess matchmaking up. It also helps combat things like boosting. > funny, either you work for riot, or have worked for riot, or are a delusion riot fanboy, that much is clear, and the link itself states proof, whether the link works or not. Nope none of them. I’ve never worked for riot and have no intention of working for riot... but I believe if your gonna complain do it for the right thing. Complaining about trolls, valid... complaining about match,asking actually doing it’s job isn’t... complaining about conspiracy theories isn’t And again your the only one who managed to see that ‘proof’, so none of us know if it’s proof or you lying. Again your word against everyone else’s and you’ve got no proof that your not lying. If you wanna rattle of prof go find some that still exists... until then you’ve got nothing.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=00000000000000020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-21T13:28:48.972+0000) > > The funny thing is this is exactly what I’ve been saying this entire time, you’ve just not been listening. > And I’m not denying anything, I’m litterally telling you this is how matchmaking is supposed to work and how it works in pretty much every game... as you start winning a lot you get placed with harder players because you are winning too often vs your current, if that then proves too hard it lowers again until your against players who are equal skill to you... you know like a match makin system should. > lol BS, you've been saying the MMS keeps giving you fair matches where everyone's MMR is the same, stop BSsing already. > But that’s not manipulating or interfering... it’s a system that’s entire point is to match you vs players of equal skill to you acknowledging your skill level has changed and changing you opponents accordingly.... that way players who your against aren’t horrifically outskilled or your not outskilled, and s your not climbing just because your opponents are too weak... you know how it’s supposed to work. > that is rigging, no offense but you gotta lack braincells to not understand this lol, what makes you think a player improved skill wise several divisions after consecutive wins? it might be that said player faced consecutive teams that had afkers..... so now the MMS throws this player several divisions higher, and the player loses...... but so does the rest of his team mates, and all becasue riot decided to INTERFERE, why not let the player climb naturally? if it were a funcitioning MMS, there would be no reason to adjust by placing players higher or lower based on consecutive wins...... > It’s matchmaking, it’s recognising your skill level and putting you vs opponents to challenge you. > all it sees are consecutive wins/loses not skill level lol, MMR is similar to everyone in your division, it makes no sense to be placed higher or lower, based on consecutive wins/loses, the MMS doesn't know why you won...... hence its matchfixing. > If a silver VI is the same MMR as a gold 1 that means either two things... that silver VI belongs in gold and thus will win much more LP and loose very little as they climb, or that gold 1 belongs in silver and then LP is reversed. > > But this way that silver isn’t demolishing their games without a challenge, or that gold isn’t ruining game and their different LP gains will have their ranks become what their skill level shows it is. > doesn't work that way, you can only climb or drop, after winning or losing, so being placed higher once by the MMS and winning doesn't suddenly make you be several divisions higher, it just makes you get a little more LP than normal, you'd still be wehere you were...... > They don’t do nothing with trolls... plenty of cases of trolls getting banned... most ten to go quietly though > > They do need to do more, but you can’t see some of the massive shit shows surrounding trolls getting banned and say they never do. > thats why almost every match has trolls? and thats why riot stated that taking care of trolls is ''complicated'' lol.... > Not a whole lot to fix with MMS... remember there’s a reason these ‘issues’ exist in every online game match making itself is just not anywhere near what online gaming needed it to be and it’s likely never gonna to be... league’s is among the better one on the market, take that how you’d like. > worse ones you mean lol, thats not how an MMS works at all, thats riot rigging it, the issues can be adressed, riot just doesn't, heck they even threw in issues ''unranked players'', and ''matchfixing after consecutive wins'' > Decay is there so that a counts in high elo have to play to stay... which helps combat brought or elo boosted accounts (get to diamond with boosting or buying a diamond account, then never play ranked and stay In diamond all season) > > And it’s not the consequence of stronger opponents... having a premade of a bronze and a diamond in a diamond level game is unfair for the other 3 players... but hypocritical wanting better match making then wanting a mode to mess matchmaking up. > It also helps combat things like boosting. > boosting only gets one so far, they'd drop anyways making decay useless....... > Nope none of them. I’ve never worked for riot and have no intention of working for riot... but I believe if your gonna complain do it for the right thing. > > Complaining about trolls, valid... complaining about match,asking actually doing it’s job isn’t... complaining about conspiracy theories isn’t > > And again your the only one who managed to see that ‘proof’, so none of us know if it’s proof or you lying. Again your word against everyone else’s and you’ve got no proof that your not lying. > > If you wanna rattle of prof go find some that still exists... until then you’ve got nothing. lel all anyone has to do is read the link, and the fact it got removed so fast, is proof at itself. why are you defending riot?
Sefiroz (EUW)
: 50% winrate would be 2 wins and 2 losses. No idea where or how you learned math that taught you 2 out of 3 becomes 50%.
> [{quoted}](name=Sefiroz,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-21T13:37:27.291+0000) > > 50% winrate would be 2 wins and 2 losses. > > No idea where or how you learned math that taught you 2 out of 3 becomes 50%. stop trying to twist my words..... or are you really this dumb? {{sticker:sg-kiko}} WIN 2 LOSE 1 means you'd be gaining more LP than losing, or at least you should, and prevents the MMS triggering, since its not enough consecutive.
: > so they force you to 50% winrate..... THEY FORCE YOU TO MOVE UP OR DOWN SEVERAL DIVISIONS ALL FOR THE SAKE OF 50% WINRATE, you have such a thick skull XD No they don’t, it really isnt as dramatic as you seem to think it is. As you win and increase your mmr you go against players with the same mmr, same as when you loose. This doesn’t force you up or down several divisions it’s putting you on the same levels as people who win or loose as often as you. > how is this not rigging it? they either force you to get out of lose streak by placing you lower for the time being, or they force you to get out of a win streak by placing you higher for the time being, you do realize the MMR does not change unless you win or lose, so if you win a match higher than you usually do, kudos, all you get is LP and you most likely are still in the same division..... what was the whole point of that? oh right 50% winrate Because rigging would be they choose a rank for you and force you to stay there... If your on a win streak that means your either increadibly lucky or your against opponents that are too weak for you, visa versa for a loose streak. A good match making system will recognise this and out you vs opponents that are stronger... if you where just lucky it will equalise out, if you where improving then now your against players who match you skill level It’s using your win and loose streaks to make better matches for you... you know like a match maker should. > eh no, it matches you against players with an higher or lower MMR, aka skill level as riot loves to translate it, bad matches happen, and can happen consecutively, this trigger happy system does this because, Which is exactly what I’ve been saying, it matches you against players of an equal MMR... when you start loosing your matches vs weaker opponents, if that was just a fluke you will go back up... and visa versa. You seem to have a real hard time grasping what a match making system is actually meant to do... it’s meant to give you opponents you are equal against, to do that it’s gotta calibrate you. > there are factors riot simply didn't or refuses to eliminate, like smurfs/trolls/flamers/unranked, they tip the balance and can cause win/lose streaks, or do you really not see it? and ofcourse riot ignores trolls/smurfs and allow unranked players to join silver+ matches.... And this ties back to the first comment > There’s litterally no way to know how well a player might perform in any given game... even good players might look bad from time to time Riot can’t tell when someone is going to troll or flame, if they’ve done it a lot yes but they are often banned... but someone who’s never done it before might suddenly start. It really doesn’t matter how many people riot bans people are not nice especially on online games, and as you’ve gotta do the crime to get punished even if riot banned after the first instance you’d still have to put up with it. And riot can’t do anything to smurfs, it’s not like it’s hard to come up with IP changers or use a different email address. > lel no concidence there, the link worked before and when i posted it, but right before you comment on it, its a sudden 400 bad request, isn't the first time happening btw, happens way too often, too much shady is too much. So your assuming I’ve used my magic powers to get rid of the link... grow up... it’s not my fault your ‘evidence’ got deleted and if you can’t supply evidence for your claims nobody will ever believe you
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=000000000000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-20T22:44:19.276+0000) > > No they don’t, it really isnt as dramatic as you seem to think it is. As you win and increase your mmr you go against players with the same mmr, same as when you loose. This doesn’t force you up or down several divisions it’s putting you on the same levels as people who win or loose as often as you. > no lol, https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide ''Climbing the ladder While MMR is the number we use to determine your opponents, your personal progress is represented by the Leagues system. Here are a few familiar situations to illustrate the difference between your League and your MMR: You’re winning a lot, and the matchmaker is placing you against stronger opponents. A Silver player pushing for Gold should expect to see higher-tier players in their games. It means you’re winning more than you’re losing, and it means the matchmaker is starting to suspect that you’re worthy of higher placement. If you’re on a big win streak, you may even start to see opponents several divisions above you.'' your MMR doesn't alter when the MMS throws you several divisions higher, than your MMR actually is, i explained this several times and yet you still deny it O.o, the MMS does not place you with players with the same MMR as you, the MMS looks at TOTAL team MMR. ''The team’s average MMR is the same, but one team has five roughly-equal teammates and the other team has a few very highly-ranked players and a few lower ones.'' > Because rigging would be they choose a rank for you and force you to stay there... > thats not what rigging means -.-, rigging means to manipulate something, or interfere with something, and thats exactly what the MMS is doing -.- a player on a win/lose streak gets manipulated, why can't the MMS let them climb or drop naturally? > If your on a win streak that means your either increadibly lucky or your against opponents that are too weak for you, visa versa for a loose streak. A good match making system will recognise this and out you vs opponents that are stronger... if you where just lucky it will equalise out, if you where improving then now your against players who match you skill level > thats what rigging is, and your assumption that players are either lucky or opponents are weak is disgusting, it could just as well be that players simply performed well consecutively as a team, and besides both teams could've performed well, one just a little better than the other, someone got to lose at some point for the match to end..... > It’s using your win and loose streaks to make better matches for you... you know like a match maker should. > no its not making anything better, and thats matchfixing not matchmaking. > Which is exactly what I’ve been saying, it matches you against players of an equal MMR... when you start loosing your matches vs weaker opponents, if that was just a fluke you will go back up... and visa versa. > > You seem to have a real hard time grasping what a match making system is actually meant to do... it’s meant to give you opponents you are equal against, to do that it’s gotta calibrate you. > it doesn't match you with players of equal mmr, thats the whole point, how can a sliver V have the same MMR as a gold 1? the MMS just equalizes the TOTAL MMR of the team, and yet you are the one trying to create confusion, and lying/twisting things.... you even use half quotes rather than what is said fully to take it out of context. > Riot can’t tell when someone is going to troll or flame, if they’ve done it a lot yes but they are often banned... but someone who’s never done it before might suddenly start. It really doesn’t matter how many people riot bans people are not nice especially on online games, and as you’ve gotta do the crime to get punished even if riot banned after the first instance you’d still have to put up with it. > they could put more effort in it, they absolutely do nothing about trolls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNqqghH-gEE , its not about anticipation, its about what they do when they DEFINITELY know players are trolling...... > And riot can’t do anything to smurfs, it’s not like it’s hard to come up with IP changers or use a different email address. > or they could improve the game properly, fix the MMS, and get rid of that decay, create a mode so that any elo can do ranked premade and bear the consequences of facing off against stronger opponents etc etc. > So your assuming I’ve used my magic powers to get rid of the link... grow up... it’s not my fault your ‘evidence’ got deleted and if you can’t supply evidence for your claims nobody will ever believe you funny, either you work for riot, or have worked for riot, or are a delusion riot fanboy, that much is clear, and the link itself states proof, whether the link works or not.
Sefiroz (EUW)
: That would be fine if your explanation wasn't contradicted with what people are consistently doing xD You also say yourself the "best way" is to win 2 and lose 1, which contradicts the "forced" 50% winrate in itself as well :')
> [{quoted}](name=Sefiroz,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-20T19:46:47.714+0000) > > That would be fine if your explanation wasn't contradicted with what people are consistently doing xD > > You also say yourself the "best way" is to win 2 and lose 1, which contradicts the "forced" 50% winrate in itself as well :') lol thats not an contradiction, thats actually supporting the forced 50% winrate...... because a winstreak will place you too high and can make you possibly lose, by losing once every 3 matches you can prevent that a bit, if you don't get trolls/flamers/unranked in your team or smurfs against you, stop twisting things and posting comments that tell half of what i said, to try to discredit me.
Sefiroz (EUW)
: I've said it before, if a 50% winrate was "forced" not a single person would be able to climb in any way :')
> [{quoted}](name=Sefiroz,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-20T19:23:21.955+0000) > > I've said it before, if a 50% winrate was "forced" not a single person would be able to climb in any way :') false, its not foolproof, i explained why.
Zanador (EUNE)
: You misunderstand a few things here. First, there are two different 50-50s going on. One is 50% chance to win a match and the other is 50% win rate, because those are not the same. 50% chance to win is basically a balanced match, where skill and current performance decides the results and both sides started on an equal footing when they joined the matchmaking. 50% win rate on the other hand can come from 2 possible sources: 1. Naturally. This means that if you are correctly rated and you are consistently matched in games where you have a 50% chance to win, then your win rate will naturally converge towards 50%. 2. Forced. In this scenario if your win rate differs from 50%, then the matchmaking will force you back to 50%. Now, the first one describes a good and healthy matchmaking, the second one is a horrible mess. But there are quite a few good proofs that show us that while we might not have an ideal first version, we definitely do not have the second one either. One proof is the range of observable win rates. Look up an iron player and notice that their WR is way under 50%, yet the system never forced them to win enough to get back to 50%. Same with challenger players on the other way. As a result since lower ranked or weaker players tend to have a win rate that's lower than 50%, the forced system would make sure that they will win. So having an Iron IV teammate in your gold match would be a sure sign of a victory, while having a challenger duo smurf in your team would almost certainly mean a loss. --------------------------------------- Up next, the hit boxes. The second link didn't work for me either, but the third one is an interesting one, but in reality it seems good. So in the 3rd link a player posts screen shots of how Jihn's ultimate looks wider for the enemy team than his own. For Jihn it shows the area where he can aim his bullets. For his opponents it shows the area where they can be hit if their hit boxes still overlap with the area. Since Jihn's bullets are not point-like but have a small width, this is a necessary distinction. When Jihn aims he middle of the bullet has to be within the line, but the side of if can slightly go over the border of his ultimate and still hit the targets. So if you are dodging that skill you want to see the wider area which represents the possible paths of the side of the bullets. Of course this could be changed in a way where both teams see the same AOE, but then Jihn would not be able to shoot a bullet directly along the edges of his AOE, which could be frustrating. All in all, instead of condemning Riot, this is actually quite impressive from them for thinking a few steps ahead in this case.
> [{quoted}](name=Zanador,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=00000000000000020001,timestamp=2020-01-20T12:17:34.340+0000) > > You misunderstand a few things here. > > First, there are two different 50-50s going on. > One is 50% chance to win a match and the other is 50% win rate, because those are not the same. 50% chance to win is basically a balanced match, where skill and current performance decides the results and both sides started on an equal footing when they joined the matchmaking. > i'm not confusing anything, i apologize if it confuses other players, but what i meant is this : win/lose streak makes the MMS place you higher/lower by several divisions, meaning that the MMS goes against the 50% winrate chance, the MMS equalizes this by total MMR, so according to MMS/Riot thats a 50% winrate, what this accomplishes is mostly players forcing to raise their winrate or lower their winrate by creating unbalanced teams opposing eachother, rather than to let players on a win/lose streak naturally, if riot wants to let them go on naturally they would also have to fix smurfing/trolling/flaming/unranked players in ranked matches, and i'm guessing riot doesn't want to or doesn't feel like it, ofcourse there are also the facts that riot doesn't want too many challengers, and want to keep as many players as possible playing, right now to get a positive winrate you would either, win 4 times and lose once consecutively and hope you don't get trolls/flamers/unranked in your team, or smurfs opposing you, or win the match the MMS throws at you for winning consecutively. > 50% win rate on the other hand can come from 2 possible sources: > > 1. Naturally. This means that if you are correctly rated and you are consistently matched in games where you have a 50% chance to win, then your win rate will naturally converge towards 50%. > > 2. Forced. In this scenario if your win rate differs from 50%, then the matchmaking will force you back to 50%. > > Now, the first one describes a good and healthy matchmaking, the second one is a horrible mess. But there are quite a few good proofs that show us that while we might not have an ideal first version, we definitely do not have the second one either. > One proof is the range of observable win rates. Look up an iron player and notice that their WR is way under 50%, yet the system never forced them to win enough to get back to 50%. Same with challenger players on the other way. > there is no lower division than iron, so the MMS can't force them to go lower and win...... challengers are top players vs top players, that is tricky because the game changes at diamond, instead of win or lose, you now have DECAY, so there's a lot of winswapping going on up there, meaning they prevent win/lose streaks alot, that, and again the MMS can't force challengers to oppose divions higher to make them lose..... you took 2 extreme ends, and this proves nothing O.o the system is rigged and the proof is clear, the MMS forces you to go higher or lower after consecutive wins, riot refuses to take care of smurfs/trollers/flamers properly and even forces unranked players that should start at iron/bronze/silver V into high silver and gold+. > As a result since lower ranked or weaker players tend to have a win rate that's lower than 50%, the forced system would make sure that they will win. So having an Iron IV teammate in your gold match would be a sure sign of a victory, while having a challenger duo smurf in your team would almost certainly mean a loss. > --------------------------------------- a challenger smurf in your team is sure fire way to lose your match? and an iron IV in your team would mean victory? you mean that the other way around? i get what you're going on here, but it doesn't work that way. > Up next, the hit boxes. > The second link didn't work for me either, but the third one is an interesting one, but in reality it seems good. > yeah riot removed that link right after i posted it lol, its about an employee admitting the hitboxes are rigged, not the first time riot is in my way of proving things. > So in the 3rd link a player posts screen shots of how Jihn's ultimate looks wider for the enemy team than his own. > For Jihn it shows the area where he can aim his bullets. > For his opponents it shows the area where they can be hit if their hit boxes still overlap with the area. > > Since Jihn's bullets are not point-like but have a small width, this is a necessary distinction. When Jihn aims he middle of the bullet has to be within the line, but the side of if can slightly go over the border of his ultimate and still hit the targets. So if you are dodging that skill you want to see the wider area which represents the possible paths of the side of the bullets. > riot employee actually admitted that they make it look for the player as if they would hit, making the hitbox appear larger than it is, riot thinks otherwise players would miss alot of skillshots -.- and yes for the opponent it looks as if the hitbox is smaller to make said player err..... catering to players for no reason lol, which is why there are alot of ''WTF they missed but i still take damage'' posts lol > Of course this could be changed in a way where both teams see the same AOE, but then Jihn would not be able to shoot a bullet directly along the edges of his AOE, which could be frustrating. > > All in all, instead of condemning Riot, this is actually quite impressive from them for thinking a few steps ahead in this case. not when its obvious they are just catering instead of letting players learn.... and gain experience in skillshotting.
: > so now you admit its forced 50% ? and yet you ridicule anyone that claims this other than you? and call them conspiracy theorists? No because it’s not forced... if you are staying above or below 50% win rate that means the opponents your going up against is too weak or strong for you... the entire point of match making is to find you opponents that you have a 50/50 chance against, which will ultimately result in you getting a 50%ish win rate... this isn’t a conspiracy that’s litterally what matchmaking is meant to do if you guys don’t realise that and think it’s riot trying to rig the game then you don’t understand how matchmaking is meant to work. > lol? the MMS system doesn't let players climb or drop naturally Yes it does... it matches you vs opponents of your skill level, as you improve then you start winning, then it matches you against opponents that are at your skill level. > oh look a riot lapdog, that link was working fine couple a minutes ago btw, it showed riot employee admitting rigging hitboxes, not a consipracy theory but FACTS, you just lost all credibility, either you work for riot, or are a riot fanboy to the core .-. that post got removed with the speed of light by making it a 400 bad request like wtf LOL. So your calling me a lap dog for your evidence litterally not existing... it’s a broken link it’s not my fault you can’t link your own evidence. And again Riot is fixing this, even if it’s intentional they are changing it so it ain’t.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=0000000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-20T12:51:40.849+0000) > > No because it’s not forced... if you are staying above or below 50% win rate that means the opponents your going up against is too weak or strong for you... the entire point of match making is to find you opponents that you have a 50/50 chance against, which will ultimately result in you getting a 50%ish win rate... this isn’t a conspiracy that’s litterally what matchmaking is meant to do if you guys don’t realise that and think it’s riot trying to rig the game then you don’t understand how matchmaking is meant to work. > so they force you to 50% winrate..... THEY FORCE YOU TO MOVE UP OR DOWN SEVERAL DIVISIONS ALL FOR THE SAKE OF 50% WINRATE, you have such a thick skull XD even though there is absolutely no reason for this system to do that, players need to climb or drop gradually, not be thrown in the deep, or catered to..... how is this not rigging it? they either force you to get out of lose streak by placing you lower for the time being, or they force you to get out of a win streak by placing you higher for the time being, you do realize the MMR does not change unless you win or lose, so if you win a match higher than you usually do, kudos, all you get is LP and you most likely are still in the same division..... what was the whole point of that? oh right 50% winrate {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} > Yes it does... it matches you vs opponents of your skill level, as you improve then you start winning, then it matches you against opponents that are at your skill level. > eh no, it matches you against players with an higher or lower MMR, aka skill level as riot loves to translate it, bad matches happen, and can happen consecutively, this trigger happy system does this because, there are factors riot simply didn't or refuses to eliminate, like smurfs/trolls/flamers/unranked, they tip the balance and can cause win/lose streaks, or do you really not see it? and ofcourse riot ignores trolls/smurfs and allow unranked players to join silver+ matches.... > So your calling me a lap dog for your evidence litterally not existing... it’s a broken link it’s not my fault you can’t link your own evidence. > > And again Riot is fixing this, even if it’s intentional they are changing it so it ain’t. lel no concidence there, the link worked before and when i posted it, but right before you comment on it, its a sudden 400 bad request, isn't the first time happening btw, happens way too often, too much shady is too much.
: That’s how matchmaking is supposed to work, that’s how matchmaking works in litterally everything. As you win you go up against higher skill opponents (as you should be), as you loose you go against lower skill opponents (again how it’s supposed to work)... eventually this equalises and your against opponents of your skill level giving you a 50/50 chance of winning. Your complaining about matchmaking actually working... how the %%%% do you think it should work, it automatically gives you opponents you can beat? It predicts exactly how a match will go? And talking about hit boxes being a conspiracy theory is bull when you realise riot has litterally been updating all of their old spell effects to match their hitboxes, even if it was intentional (which is highly unlikely and your ‘evidence’ is a broken link) it’s being fixed.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=00000000000000020000,timestamp=2020-01-20T11:28:21.135+0000) > > That’s how matchmaking is supposed to work, that’s how matchmaking works in litterally everything. > > As you win you go up against higher skill opponents (as you should be), as you loose you go against lower skill opponents (again how it’s supposed to work)... eventually this equalises and your against opponents of your skill level giving you a 50/50 chance of winning. > so now you admit its forced 50% ? and yet you ridicule anyone that claims this other than you? and call them conspiracy theorists? > Your complaining about matchmaking actually working... how the %%%% do you think it should work, it automatically gives you opponents you can beat? It predicts exactly how a match will go? > lol? the MMS system doesn't let players climb or drop naturally. > And talking about hit boxes being a conspiracy theory is bull when you realise riot has litterally been updating all of their old spell effects to match their hitboxes, even if it was intentional (which is highly unlikely and your ‘evidence’ is a broken link) it’s being fixed. oh look a riot lapdog, that link was working fine couple a minutes ago btw, it showed riot employee admitting rigging hitboxes, not a consipracy theory but FACTS, you just lost all credibility, either you work for riot, or are a riot fanboy to the core .-. that post got removed with the speed of light by making it a 400 bad request like wtf LOL.
Sefiroz (EUW)
: Not at all, I just skipped ahead to the conclusion :') The same conspiracy theories all the time with the same lack of sensible arguments does make it a bit too predictable... Reminds me of anti-vaxxers a bit too much {{sticker:sg-zephyr}}
> [{quoted}](name=Sefiroz,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-20T10:57:36.485+0000) > > Not at all, I just skipped ahead to the conclusion :') > > The same conspiracy theories all the time with the same lack of sensible arguments does make it a bit too predictable... > > Reminds me of anti-vaxxers a bit too much {{sticker:sg-zephyr}} https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide lol what theory? this is how the MMS system works : TOTAL MMR per team must match give or take +- so lets say MMR is 0-10, and your team has 5 MMR per player, that results in a 25 total MMR, your opponents however have 10 - 2 - 5 - 4 - 4 MMR rating, making it 25 total as well, all is reasonable by this system, the problem though are the 10 and 2 MMR, one will suck hard probably, and the other will carry like no tomorrow..... in theory yes this is a 50% winrate match, in fact though the 10 - 2 - 5 - 4 - 4 team has a higher winrate due to the 10 MMR player, the 4 mmr players aren't that far apart from the 5 mmr players, so yeah only 1 weak link, but they get compensated by one player with double mmr..... the MMS system doesn't let players climb normally when they consecutively win or lose, meaing you can end up (or end up with players that are) several divisions higher (or lower than you), altering the team setup MMR per player...... another issue is that the MMS system loves to throw in unranked players often, with incredibly low MMR, i've seen them in gold matches.... they are often in platinum matches as well, ofcourse not all unranked players are smurfs..... so yeah you end up with rookie players in your matches, messing up the game, or with smurfs carrying for you, quite funny how you don't get to see ranks in champion select right? so this begs the question, why does riot made or allow this to happen? why not let unranked players start in iron or bronze? why not let players that consecutively win or lose, climb or drop naturally? the answer, and only answer is, to FORCE a 50% winrate {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}, riot benefits from this, since it makes players play the game longer (kaching), before if they ever hit challenger, another reason is, that riot doesn't want too many challenger players, many players would stop playing once they hit the top, and not all players are willing to go tournaments. the best way to play the game is to win twice and lose once consecutively, and hope you don't get rookie unranked players in your team, or smurfs against you.
: No it doesn’t. The reason you end up with 50% win rate is because if your facing opponents of equal skill to you then your win rate should be around 50%... And like I said you can’t predict how a teammate will perform in your games, your ‘shitty’ teammates might be good players on an off day, and seemingly bad players might be improving or having a good game. There’s no system that can predict how badly a player will perform, which makes all of this “forced 50% match making” complete garbage, it’s just a conspiracy theory people come up with to excuse them not climbing, because they are where they belong
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=YsJ6IBmM,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-20T02:47:15.121+0000) > > No it doesn’t. > > The reason you end up with 50% win rate is because if your facing opponents of equal skill to you then your win rate should be around 50%... > > And like I said you can’t predict how a teammate will perform in your games, your ‘shitty’ teammates might be good players on an off day, and seemingly bad players might be improving or having a good game. There’s no system that can predict how badly a player will perform, which makes all of this “forced 50% match making” complete garbage, it’s just a conspiracy theory people come up with to excuse them not climbing, because they are where they belong lol, you have no idea how the matchmaking system works do you?, when a player wins several matches in a row, the MMS throws them in higher, way too high tbh, so instead of gradually gaining experience, you suddenly find yourself in a match you can't handle, and the opposite works as wells, if a player loses several matches in a row, they get plunged way lower, and suddenly they outperform themselves, and the best thing is, that the MMR doesn't alter with this at all, the MMS system only does this once every X amount of CONSECUTIVE games to force a 50% winrate, ''While we know some matches may feel like stomps, we do try to make sure all teams have a 50 +/-1% chance of victory'' https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide , theory my arse. or do you find this too hard to believe from a company that creates larger hitboxes than animations to make players feel good, or prevent them from feeling bad since they normally would've missed? https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AEwWdEsY-actual-employee-admits-they-make-the-hitboxes-for-skillshots-shorter-to-%%%%-with-you , https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n4V0dLys-artrequires-hitboxes-to-be-fixed?comment=000c .
Zbum (EUW)
: AP items have a lot of AP compared to AD items. Until there are AD item that give 120 AD then you can't argue ratios, the ratio argument is therefore moot.
> [{quoted}](name=Zbum,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=7WxmnUzz,comment-id=0000000200010000,timestamp=2020-01-18T20:33:26.990+0000) > > AP items have a lot of AP compared to AD items. Until there are AD item that give 120 AD then you can't argue ratios, the ratio argument is therefore moot. an ad champion with 500 ad does way more damage than an mage with 500 ap..... no offense or something but, combine this with atk speed, and you get hit by 500 ad every second or faster.....which could also be empowered by abilities and crit items, which is why you can get oneshotted or twoshotted by AA......, and AA cannot be avoided, but abilities can generally be avoided with some exceptions like malzahar ult, malzahar ult does max 275 + 80% hp, and 2.5% per 100 + 20% of targets maximum health damage, the avergae hp at lvl 18 is 2500, so malzahar does 275 + (500 divided by 100 times 80) = 675 damage + (2.5% per 100 ap = 12.5) + 20% hp = 562.5 every half a second so times 5 = 2562.5+ 675 = 3237.5 damage, now lets doo ad, lets say the average is 0.50 second interval, so thats at least 1000 ad per second, now lets say all attacks are crits, crit damage is generally 225% of your ad with IE, so thats 1000 + 2250 = 3250 damage per hit, ofcourse we need to deduce armor/mr yet, 3237.5 damage malzahar, average mr is 100, the formula is total magic resist divided through (100 + total magic resist) times 100, so 100 + 100 = 200, 100 divided by 200 = 0.5, 0.5 times 100 = 50% damage reduction, so 3237.5 divided by 2 = 1618.75 damage. 3250 damage marksman, lets take 100 armor as well, the formula is total armor resist divided through (100 + total armor) times 100, so 100 + 100 = 22, 100 divided by 200 = 0.5, 0.5 times 100 = 50% damage reduction, so 3250 divided by 2 = 1625 damage. lets go for armor/magic penetration malzahar builds {{item:3020}} and {{item:3001}} marskman builds {{item:3036}} so malzahar has 18 magic pen + 15% more damage taken by opponent so mr 100 - 15 = 85 3237.5 + 15% = 3723.12 damage now 85 divided through (100 + 85) times 100 = 45% (3723.12 divided by 100) times 45 = 1675.40 3723.12 - 1675.40 = 2047.72 damage done or taken marksman with lord dominik and 35% pen so armor is (100 divided through a 100) times 35 = 35 100 - 35 = 65 65 divided through (100 + 65) times a 100 = 39% (3250 divided through a 100) times 39 = 1267.5 3250 - 1267.5 = 1982.5 damage done or taken malzahar ult lasts 2.5 seconds and he does 2047.72 damage in 2.5 seconds the marksman does 1982.5 damage per half a second @.@, thats 5 times 1982.5 = 9912.5 damage in the same amount of time, even per second thats 1982.5 + 1982.5 = 3965 damage in the same amount of time, so yeah, no ratio arguments aren't moot, the average ad on an adc is about 300, for a mage thats 250 to 300 ap, considering an adc does way more damage than an mage in a shorter amount of time, such ratios are important, the fact also remains that mages tend to have CD, compared to marksman/bruisers autoattacking more often, so yeah, no need to buff mr items at all, maybe look at some ap champions kit damage/utility, rather than mr on items.
: Most mages are AoE... and his cooldowns aren’t that much lower than other mages. So no your damage is going to be averaging as lower than most mages, he lacks the poke of a artillery mage, the raw damage of a burst mage, or the constant AoE of a battle mage... but his utility is what makes him good.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=7WxmnUzz,comment-id=0001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2020-01-18T15:08:01.461+0000) > > Most mages are AoE... and his cooldowns aren’t that much lower than other mages. So no your damage is going to be averaging as lower than most mages, he lacks the poke of a artillery mage, the raw damage of a burst mage, or the constant AoE of a battle mage... but his utility is what makes him good. lol i was comparing zilean damage to more than just mages, and he has inbuild cd reset, so yeah his cd are much lower than other mages, with the exception to karma spamming her Q every 2.25 seconds, the damage is mainly determined by stats on the abilities, rather than raw ap, zilean nades do 300 + 90% ap damage twice, so lets say 200 ap thats 480 + 480 = 960 damage 1 combo, he can do this every 3.3 seconds, now lets compare to lux, her lowest cd is 8 deduct 45% and you get to 4.4 seconds, that ability does 240 + 60% ap, so 200 ap, thats 360 damage + 390 damage from her Q + 700 from her ult, thats 1450 damage in a combo, her ult has 40 cd deduct 45% is 22 seconds, her Q has 9 cd deduct 45% is 4.95 seconds, so lux does 360 + 390 = 750 damage every 4,95 seconds, now lets take 22 seconds, zilean does his abilities 6 times in 22 seconds, and lux does this 4 times in 22 seconds, so 5760 damage from zilean in 22 seconds, and 3000 + 700 = 3700 + 230 damage from a basic attack times 4 = 920, 3700 + 920 = 4620 damage in 22 seconds from lux, the only difference is that lux is a champion that caters to mentally ill players, she gets her combo off easier than zilean does, and this is just single target damage, the average for each champion to hit is about 2, so you can double that damage, and ofcourse there is play style, zilean tends to be support and lux tends to be mid more, so as a support you try not to get the kill, therefore you engage much less, lux her cc lasts 2 and 5 seconds root/slow, zilean cc lasts 1.5 and 2.5 seconds stun/slow, the conclusion is simple, zilean is balanced, and lux is overloaded, she can do more damage because her abilities land easier due to her excessive cc, and this is just one reason why some champions appear OP, it isn't always the damage like i said earlier, its often the kit, lux her utility is more effective than zilean utility, even though zilean does more damage than the average mage in a shorter amount of time.
2xDealer (EUW)
: > mages are the least of anyone's worry I'm afraid, many people say 'mages' meaning anyone with magic damage and AP-based items. {{champion:245}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:142}} maybe {{champion:103}} Other AP-skirmishers and assassins, too. But I agree, true mages nowadays are the least of worries. (Except some hard cases like Veigar, maybe).
> [{quoted}](name=2xDealer,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=7WxmnUzz,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-17T09:52:22.523+0000) > > I'm afraid, many people say 'mages' meaning anyone with magic damage and AP-based items. > {{champion:245}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:142}} maybe {{champion:103}} > > Other AP-skirmishers and assassins, too. But I agree, true mages nowadays are the least of worries. (Except some hard cases like Veigar, maybe). yeah, the general problem lies with their kits, mobility/cc/mitigation, if ekko didnt heal back with a dash, he wouldn't be played , if diana wouldn't be beefy she'd be played less because she'd be more complex with initiating combat, if fizz couldn't jump and dash......, if zoe didnt put anyone to sleep she'd be killed in an instant, and if ahri couldn't charm and dash she wouldn't survive or engage much, veigar has been toned down, but yeah he's still strong, on the other side it never feels like he actually goes over the top anymore, and comes to halt late game, at least generally speaking from what i've seen as of late, rather than oneshotting everyone like crazy {{sticker:sg-ahri-1}} , he used to be incredibly op, but most of these champions have in common that they function as assassins, they come out of nowhere to burst in and kill, and than jump out, ahri was classified as an actual assassin on release, and now she's just burst mage, diana came out as fighter/mage and is now assassin/diver O.o, ekko and fizz were released as assassin/fighter, but are now just assassin, zoe has always been mage though, but she just plays as an assassin imo, i believe that the issue lies within riot games themselves, one team developes the champions and classifies them, but another team tweaks them and classifies them differently, so now you get really odd champions with overloaded kits and complimenting items to make them function better the way they want them to be played, rather than to the intent of how they were made, and ofcourse riot themselves want all champions viable on any lane, which poses a problem as to how to develop said champions, one of the best examples is akali, shes a full blown assassin, but with ap, i can tell you right now, maybe only veigar could get as close to the damage she does, and veigar has to stack for it .-., the only other true mages i can think of that are a problem atm, are lux/brand and malzahar, lux has an overloaded kit, brand has too high damage stats to his abilities and malzahar is still point and click -.-.
: Ignoring litterally everything else because I really cba to get into another argument with someone like you... zilean has only 1 damage ability, surely it makes sense that he’s not gonna be doing the same damage as other mages, his power comes from his ult.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=7WxmnUzz,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2020-01-17T16:50:46.574+0000) > > Ignoring litterally everything else because I really cba to get into another argument with someone like you... zilean has only 1 damage ability, surely it makes sense that he’s not gonna be doing the same damage as other mages, his power comes from his ult. hahaha wrong, as a zilean you engage more often, and his nades are AOE, so you should be on par, but since zilean is actually balanced, the damage is normal, not over the top.
2xDealer (EUW)
: AH! A voice of reason in the wilderness! This is correct. Only... if "buffing the counters" is your only tool, you will eventually meet Ms. Inflation. Inflationary pressure. You will have too much of damage, resistances, movement speed and everything else. Eventually it will lead to going out of linear portion on some dependencies. I.e. you will get a 'step'. A "100-0" in our case. A game of who deletes who first. This often can be avoided, if you update _all_ the dependecies every time. But League is too complex a system, and some of the dependencies will surely be forgotten on the way. That's why I say that you also need to nerf sometimes: to return it back to the initial balance, where it all started. Not make everyone stronger all the time.
> [{quoted}](name=2xDealer,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=7WxmnUzz,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2020-01-17T07:23:54.796+0000) > > AH! A voice of reason in the wilderness! This is correct. Only... if "buffing the counters" is your only tool, you will eventually meet Ms. Inflation. Inflationary pressure. You will have too much of damage, resistances, movement speed and everything else. Eventually it will lead to going out of linear portion on some dependencies. I.e. you will get a 'step'. A "100-0" in our case. A game of who deletes who first. This often can be avoided, if you update _all_ the dependecies every time. But League is too complex a system, and some of the dependencies will surely be forgotten on the way. That's why I say that you also need to nerf sometimes: to return it back to the initial balance, where it all started. Not make everyone stronger all the time. there is no reasoning with that person lol, he is as delusional as riot employee, damage needs an overal nerf, mages are the least of anyone's worry, most of them use skillshots, so they can be avoided, byt try avoiding an assassin ult -.-, and ap items are also not a problem, the initial damage on their abilities is, akali for instance does way too much damage, and thats not because she's ap, but because shes designed to do that -.-, i can build full ap on zilean and still not meet the same damage as other mages, that should explain enough.
: > [{quoted}](name=DeCoqq,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=000100000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-09T11:46:12.284+0000) > > You are so wrong, you dont know who are tanks or what tank items are but still you complain about tanks. You clearly have issues with bruisers, not tanks. > Anyhow, im saying that if you take offensive items into you calculations then you should add def items also. As you said, i.e banshee and zhonya give resist and add that to natural armor and mr and any other item that have resist, you mitigate enough dmg NOT to be oneshotted by those champs you mentioned. dude all of these items are for defense, they give shields, and defensive stats, compare that to actual offensive items that give 100+ ap or ad lol, which is simply one of the problem, these defensive items are popular amongst bruisers/skirmishers/adc/non tank mages and assassins even, they need tweaking or restricted to only be used by tanks, yeah thats what defense items are for, not to be killed, to mitigate or absorb damage, i have issues with tanks/bruisers/skirmishers/assassins, some mages and adc, because most ad based champions are broken beyond nightmares .o., and the reason for that is simple, riot never classified champions properly, they released champion to do everything, this is why there are kits like riven's and mundo's, and why there are tanks with high damage, and fighters with high defense, and items that cater to both of them, but this is what riot planned, because they want players to feel like they are god, hence the broken champions/kits/items/hitboxes etc so i'm not wrong when i call a jax a tank when he tanks the same amount of damage as a leona, lol
> [{quoted}](name=DeCoqq,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=00010000000000000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-10T12:04:03.352+0000) > > Your so called "tanks" don't do damage if build defensively, they might do dmg with offensive items. > But, back to the original question which you haven't been able to answer with proof, which tank oneshots somebody in tank build? > You couldnt answer so you added items into your calculations, now give items also to the enemy. Who of your tanks is going to oneshot lvl 18 and six items enemy? Sion maybe? Or blitz? Do they even get a chance to try or have they been already obliterated? > lol i did answer that, i have witnessed it myself, and tanks do damage without offensive items, most tanks have abilities that scale on armor/mr or hp. > Btw, in all stars event there was an 'assassin mode' game where only assassins and offensive items (bar boots) were allowed. I.e. zhonya and ga were build. So, according to riot and pro players those are offensive items but i guess you know better. Also your "jungle tank" lee was picked. But i understand that classifications (champs and items) will confuse you when you make them up yourself. well riot can't even classify their own champions, and pro players aren't the brightest, so yeah i guess i know better, here a song about lee lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA04nbviQ8E , if even songs like this are made, nough said {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: A passive lost like 75% on his stacks he is just garbage right now.Admit it compare with kaisa cait ez maybe lucian he is just bad at scalling good early depnds on playstyle but trash late
> [{quoted}](name=Worst class Adc,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=8ETh1YOK,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2020-01-09T12:14:01.351+0000) > > A passive lost like 75% on his stacks he is just garbage right now.Admit it compare with kaisa cait ez maybe lucian he is just bad at scalling good early depnds on playstyle but trash late admit what? he still oneshots everyone....... late game, even if you lose hard in lane early lol, he scales way too good late.
DeCoqq (EUW)
: You are so wrong, you dont know who are tanks or what tank items are but still you complain about tanks. You clearly have issues with bruisers, not tanks. Anyhow, im saying that if you take offensive items into you calculations then you should add def items also. As you said, i.e banshee and zhonya give resist and add that to natural armor and mr and any other item that have resist, you mitigate enough dmg NOT to be oneshotted by those champs you mentioned.
> [{quoted}](name=DeCoqq,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=000100000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-09T11:46:12.284+0000) > > You are so wrong, you dont know who are tanks or what tank items are but still you complain about tanks. You clearly have issues with bruisers, not tanks. > Anyhow, im saying that if you take offensive items into you calculations then you should add def items also. As you said, i.e banshee and zhonya give resist and add that to natural armor and mr and any other item that have resist, you mitigate enough dmg NOT to be oneshotted by those champs you mentioned. dude all of these items are for defense, they give shields, and defensive stats, compare that to actual offensive items that give 100+ ap or ad lol, which is simply one of the problem, these defensive items are popular amongst bruisers/skirmishers/adc/non tank mages and assassins even, they need tweaking or restricted to only be used by tanks, yeah thats what defense items are for, not to be killed, to mitigate or absorb damage, i have issues with tanks/bruisers/skirmishers/assassins, some mages and adc, because most ad based champions are broken beyond nightmares .o., and the reason for that is simple, riot never classified champions properly, they released champion to do everything, this is why there are kits like riven's and mundo's, and why there are tanks with high damage, and fighters with high defense, and items that cater to both of them, but this is what riot planned, because they want players to feel like they are god, hence the broken champions/kits/items/hitboxes etc so i'm not wrong when i call a jax a tank when he tanks the same amount of damage as a leona, lol
: Thought Draven was high risk high reward?
draven has always been low risk high reward, he has never been nerfed properly.
: > funny how we can't name any, and thats wrong just look at the blitz spotlight, riot released champions on multiple classifications. I have named some, I named all 19. And the blitz spotlight is 9 years old it’s completely outdated. Riot do release some champions with hybrid classifications but they don’t for tanks and bruisers due to their conflicting requirements... bruisers need to deal damage, tanks don’t. > yes what they are supposed to be, lol this applies to no champion. This applies to most champions in league > so what happend to, CC and mitigating damage? ..... Did you not listen at all. Tanks are melee and durable. These are enchanters champions who are squishy and focus on buffing and protecting allies from the back line. The difference is that enchanters need to use their own peel and protection abilities to make themselves durable and therefore loose the ability to do so for their allies, where as a tank doesn’t make that choice their defencive and utility abilities are separate. And vanguards aren’t ‘threat tanks’... they don’t deal damage still. Vanguards are champions who focus on starting fights using initiation tools, where as wardens focus on protecting... neither deal damage but one uses their utility to prevent people from killing their carries, where as vanguards jump into the enemy team and cc them all for their team to follow up. > lol a tank also deals damage, so not a tank either? Tanks don’t deal damage... only time a tank deals damage is if your outright bad. > lol so you admit he's a tank? .o. What part of needs utility to be a tank do you not understand? The ability to mitigate damage is not unique to tanks and never have been, pretty much every class has champions who can mitigate damage... mitigating damage creates a champion who is durable, this mean they can effectively fit into one of 3 classes, tanks, bruisers, and battle differences between them are utility and damage, tanks have high utility low damage, bruisers deal high damage and middle to no utility (based on if its a diver or juggernaut) and battle mages are just close range durable mages. Mundo is a juggernaut, high damage, extremely high durability (juggernauts are the most durable class in the game by far), but 0 utility. Mundo doesn’t fit into the tank class as he would need hard cc to do that, he needs to be able to initiate or peel that’s something mundo cant do. Bruisers and tanks both front line and soak up damage but they do it completely differently, a bruiser will be a damage treat meaning they can’t be ignored... a tank will use cc to prevent damage or use their mobility to jump in first to absorb the initial burst. Similar goals, very different ways of doing it and very different outcomes. > well, you should because rpgs tend to have tanks that cause more damage than your entire team called a ''boss''..... like mundo, these champs should not exist in league, because indeed league is not an rpg game, but a multiplayer game, so why does a player get to be the boss? and remain alive indefinitely whilst killing? So you have a problem with juggernauts, the class that is litterally the raid bosses of league. High durability, high damage... champions like mundo, Darius, mordekaiser ect... tanks don’t do this, they don’t kill... but instead set their team up to kill. > and high defense!, tanks deal damage too, just look at leona and nautilus..... Only early game, as they don’t build scaling they lose the ability to deal damage as their own damagebecomes outright irrelivant compared to the natural tankyness of litterally everyone. Bruisers build damage, even mundo who’s Q is 25% current health damage, his E scales with his health, and gives him massively increased ad... tanks don’t... or they wouldn’t if their items wherent so garbage, right now they do so that they can do something. > quote start ''the class / subclass structure is more a set of guidelines than rigid rules'' quote end, lol i'm wrong? > and riot is right? or did they mention they could be wrong? They are guidelines as in we can descuss how the champions go into the classes, but this is how riot balances the game. And yes they could be wrong... but there is a massive and clear difference between fighters and true tanks... hence why they are in different groups. > never said that, what should be done is an overal damage nerf at ad, items need tweaking (they should give less diverse stats, and more unique stats, ofcourse this could mean more items to buy from) and some kits need tuning like riven's, and some champs do need a defense nerf as well..... instead everything gets buffed .-. or nerfed to death, there is no in between But then you’d still complain about tanks, because tanks don’t build these items... because they don’t deal damage. And tanks need a defence buff, they get completely out competed by bruisers in all regards. > that description fits just about any champ, CC reigns, even tanks are damage threats lol, or why don't you go 1vs1 a tank They are only a damage threat when they build damage, at which point what do you expect... tanks lose every mid to late game 1v1 unless the enemy misplays horrifically, they only do damage early game at which point litterally everyone does. > support is role, tank is class, your point is? even a garen can be support tank, heck even ashe can be, so yes you are mixing things up, support tanks are roles, tanks in general are classes an can go to any lane, whether this is effective is beside the point O.o Again with the playing dumb When I say support tanks I am talking about tanks who go into the support role... support Ashe would be a support marksman, garen support would be a support bruiser. The issue is that bruisers are outcompeting top lane tanks, support tanks don’t have this issue as they don’t ever come into contact with support bruisers, and jungle tanks get outcomepeted by aggressive jungler was they loose most invades and jungle fights. Yes all tanks can b support tanks, same as how all tanks can go top... but they aren’t struggling in the support role and are in the top role. So tanks who are currently only played support shouldn’t be brought up in this descussion as they are currently fine. > no, damage is out of control because there is too much of it, buffing defense isn't making anyhthing better, you just raise the numbers O.o, that and items give damage too easy, and ofcourse ad penetration was added increasing more damage, tanks aren't dead, its just that there is too much damage in such a little time, and only some champions have inbuild healing/shields, and even without building damage they can kill, look at mundo. Yes there’s too much of it, because the champions who don’t deal damage don’t get played or get built with damage items, because their defencive items are useless.. Think about it this way, if you build a tank full tank you will die pretty quickly and do no damage, if you build them with damage you will die in pretty much the exact same speed but you’ll kill others along side. That’s why bruisers are outcompeting tanks, because they survive as long as tanks if not longer and yet will deal infinitely more damage while they are alive, where as tanks will die before they can really do anything. > go look up the classification of these champs when they got released, most of them are fighter/tanks or tank/fighters, and by player logic any champ that absorbs/mitigates damage with CC is a tank, so how is that not proven? Go look up gangplank’s classification when he was released... he got put as a support. So the outdated system which Riot themselve said was completely shit and should be ignored does prove nothing. And most players understand there’s a very big difference between the durable champions who deal damage and the ones who don’t. You’ve also contradicted yourself... “any champion that absorbs/mitigates damage with cc is a tank” so you admit that mundo is not a tank then... as he doesn’t have cc. > on top of that the discription of juggernaut fits that of a tank as well, tanking means taking damage, so a tank is just that, even if they are sub tanks, they are simply less efficient at tanking but still more efficient than average, meaning like i said tanks CAN cause damage whilst tanking damage, i just don't think thats a good idea in this game, as we can all see the effects of it, and it kinda beats the purpose of PURE tanks, which don't exist anymore at this point, hence riot decided to SUB class all champions. Except the description of juggernauts is nothing like a tank. Juggernauts are immobile (only 1 true tank is immobile), lacks cc (you said it yourself tanks have cc), and high damage (tanks don’t deal high damage)... you’ve contradicted yourself heavily. And your pure tanks do exist,.. but they’ve been forced to build damage to survive... there’s only 1 tank that is a true tank, is viable, and isn’t being forced to build damage and that’s orrn. > lel yeah main fighters but sub tanks, No not sub tanks... both are durable but that’s their only similarity... it’s like saying mages and adcs both deal damage so they are the same or subclasses... they share one simpngle similarity and besides that are vastly different, so shouldn’t be considered in the same class.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=0001000000000000000000020001000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-08T17:21:35.434+0000) > > This applies to most champions in league > so most champions don't do damage? {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} > Did you not listen at all. Tanks are melee and durable. These are enchanters champions who are squishy and focus on buffing and protecting allies from the back line. > The difference is that enchanters need to use their own peel and protection abilities to make themselves durable and therefore loose the ability to do so for their allies, where as a tank doesn’t make that choice their defencive and utility abilities are separate. > contradictions much? first you say they aren't durable and than you say they make themselves durable? yeah they can be tanks themselves and they an turn any champion into a tank by buffing them or giving them ways to mitigate damage, it all comes down to math, what about soraka? she can build full tank and still mitigate damage on allies with healing..... tanking has nothing to do with utility, the only reason tanks have utility is so that they themselves get targetted, instead of their allies, but a tanks function is to absorb/mitigate damage, you don't need utility for that per se. > And vanguards aren’t ‘threat tanks’... they don’t deal damage still. Vanguards are champions who focus on starting fights using initiation tools, where as wardens focus on protecting... neither deal damage but one uses their utility to prevent people from killing their carries, where as vanguards jump into the enemy team and cc them all for their team to follow up. > and yet they do significant damage, lol that discription makes no sense, when a leona jumps in she tends to take about 50% hp from her opponent with just 2 abilities, no significant damage threat? {{sticker:sg-kiko}} same with all the other vanguards, or do you not watch the end game results to be awed by their damage done? > What part of needs utility to be a tank do you not understand? The ability to mitigate damage is not unique to tanks and never have been, pretty much every class has champions who can mitigate damage... mitigating damage creates a champion who is durable, this mean they can effectively fit into one of 3 classes, tanks, bruisers, and battle differences between them are utility and damage, tanks have high utility low damage, bruisers deal high damage and middle to no utility (based on if its a diver or juggernaut) and battle mages are just close range durable mages. > Mundo is a juggernaut, high damage, extremely high durability (juggernauts are the most durable class in the game by far), but 0 utility. Mundo doesn’t fit into the tank class as he would need hard cc to do that, he needs to be able to initiate or peel that’s something mundo cant do. > lol utility has nothing to do with tanking damage, and yes mitigating has everything to do with tanking, because THATS what tanking means, taking in damage or lessening damage to sustain or prevent death, what part of almos tevery champ has utility and can mitigate damage don't you understand? so again by your logic, champions like morgana/janna/riven heck champions like yasuo are tanks, because they have hard utility and absorb/mitigate damage from their or for their teammates, you contradict yourself again, you say mitigating damage has nothing to diwth tank and yet you say they an fit into 3 and than state 2 classes only -.-, tank and bruisers {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} and besides ~mundo will go where he pleases~, mundo is a tank, he just walks in under turret gets attackedby 5 kills and walks out alive...... > Bruisers and tanks both front line and soak up damage but they do it completely differently, a bruiser will be a damage treat meaning they can’t be ignored... a tank will use cc to prevent damage or use their mobility to jump in first to absorb the initial burst. Similar goals, very different ways of doing it and very different outcomes. > suddenly tanks have mobility? so bruisers are tanks, if they can absorb alot of damage, its the same function, especially since tanks aren't synonym to doing no damage at all.... a tank can do damage as well, the only difference with other champions is that they can absorb or mitigate more damage than them. > So you have a problem with juggernauts, the class that is litterally the raid bosses of league. High durability, high damage... champions like mundo, Darius, mordekaiser ect... tanks don’t do this, they don’t kill... but instead set their team up to kill. > leona/naut/malphite/blitz disagree with you, who said tanks can't kill? i would prefer to see low damage tanks, but they don't exist in league, i have a problem with damage too high, and items giving too many contradictory stats, these champs need tweaking/nerfing, since A: they do too much damage compared to their overal ability to absorb/mitigate damage, or B: they absorb/mitigate too much damage compared to their ability to cause damage. > Only early game, as they don’t build scaling they lose the ability to deal damage as their own damagebecomes outright irrelivant compared to the natural tankyness of litterally everyone. > Bruisers build damage, even mundo who’s Q is 25% current health damage, his E scales with his health, and gives him massively increased ad... tanks don’t... or they wouldn’t if their items wherent so garbage, right now they do so that they can do something. > lol? malphite and galio for example have abilities that scale on armor and mr, so your logic is faulty, which is exactly why armor items with ap/ad exist, to cater to tank champions, tanks cause damage throughout the game. > They are guidelines as in we can descuss how the champions go into the classes, but this is how riot balances the game. > And yes they could be wrong... but there is a massive and clear difference between fighters and true tanks... hence why they are in different groups. > if they were clear, the game wouldn't be such a cluster%%%%. > They are only a damage threat when they build damage, at which point what do you expect... tanks lose every mid to late game 1v1 unless the enemy misplays horrifically, they only do damage early game at which point litterally everyone does. > no, just no, malphite/galio/amumu/gnar/gragas/maokai/nunu/ornn/sejuani/sion/zac/braum/chogath/poppy/shen/tahm and taric all do damage without building damage... and just for you, i took champs only out of the unoffical but recognized tank pool. > > Yes there’s too much of it, because the champions who don’t deal damage don’t get played or get built with damage items, because their defencive items are useless.. > no. > Think about it this way, if you build a tank full tank you will die pretty quickly and do no damage, if you build them with damage you will die in pretty much the exact same speed but you’ll kill others along side. > no. > That’s why bruisers are outcompeting tanks, because they survive as long as tanks if not longer and yet will deal infinitely more damage while they are alive, where as tanks will die before they can really do anything. > not always true. > Go look up gangplank’s classification when he was released... he got put as a support. So the outdated system which Riot themselve said was completely shit and should be ignored does prove nothing. > gangplank was actually released as a melee/ranged fighter for toplane, and released again later, i never watched the rerelease. > You’ve also contradicted yourself... “any champion that absorbs/mitigates damage with cc is a tank” so you admit that mundo is not a tank then... as he doesn’t have cc. > lol? i never said that, i said that was player logic, you need to learn to read O.o i keep saying any champ that absorbs and or mitigates alot of damage for the team is a tank. > Except the description of juggernauts is nothing like a tank. > > Juggernauts are immobile (only 1 true tank is immobile), lacks cc (you said it yourself tanks have cc), and high damage (tanks don’t deal high damage)... you’ve contradicted yourself heavily. > except juggernaut descriptions are tanks, and i never contradicted myself, i never said tanks have cc, i keep saying cc is of no matter to tanks lol, i also said tanks can cause damage and adviced you, to go play some rpg games to find out what tanks are lol. > And your pure tanks do exist,.. but they’ve been forced to build damage to survive... there’s only 1 tank that is a true tank, is viable, and isn’t being forced to build damage and that’s orrn. > nope, there are more than can build full defense with ad/ap, but why would anyone when items are so versatile, i do ask for items to be more unique. > No not sub tanks... both are durable but that’s their only similarity... it’s like saying mages and adcs both deal damage so they are the same or subclasses... they share one simpngle similarity and besides that are vastly different, so shouldn’t be considered in the same class. they have been subbed as tanks, riot classifies champions now on main and sub, thats a fact, and your comparison is apples and pears -.-, mages use magic (ap) and there are in fact MARKSMEN cause i think thats what you mean rather than attack damage carry, that are subbed as mages, https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list?show=rundown ezreal/jhin/kayle/varus.
DeCoqq (EUW)
: We are talking oneshotting with full tank build and you are adding dmg items into calculation, nice one. Rod, zhonya, banshee, rylais, mow and others are not tank items. If you want to use items, why not use enemy items aswell, i.e. zhonya or GA and nobody is oneshotting (again). Tanks build full tank build, that is why they are called tanks.
> [{quoted}](name=DeCoqq,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-08T17:35:27.291+0000) > > We are talking oneshotting with full tank build and you are adding dmg items into calculation, nice one. > Rod, zhonya, banshee, rylais, mow and others are not tank items. If you want to use items, why not use enemy items aswell, i.e. zhonya or GA and nobody is oneshotting (again). > Tanks build full tank build, that is why they are called tanks. wrong {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}, all of these are tank items, they give mainly hp/armor/mr large rod is generally build on tank champs, with annie as exception, zhonya gives armor, banshee gives mr and shield, rylai gives hp and slows opponents down, maw gives mr and a shield, all of these are defensive, tanks are called tanks because they absorb or mitigate alot of damage (above average), so any item that contributes to that, is an tank item, tanks aren't called tanks because they build full tank.....
: > by your logic any champion that absorbs/mititgate damage and has utility is a tank, so i guess janna/morgana/riven/yuumi/soraka etc are all tanks? cc has nothing to do with tank role! mundo is actually calssified as fighter/tank, so no matter what you say mundo is still a tank, especially since he only has 2 damaging abilities, his main role is to absorb damage, not cause it -.- so he should be in my opinion a main tank sub fighter. Any champion who is tanky, deals little damage, and supplies utility (namely cc) is a tank... that’s riot’s classification > Tanks are tough melee champions who sacrifice damage in exchange for powerful crowd control. While able to engage enemies in combat, a tank's purpose isn't usually to kill opponents; rather, tanks excel at disrupting enemies and diverting focus to themselves, allowing them to lock down specific targets (or several targets at once), as well as remove (or peel) threats from their allies. > In addition to strong base defenses, tanks generally have a means of amplifying their tankiness even further with their abilities, and tend to fully invest in defensive items to maximize their resilience. However, tanks lack the tools to truly succeed in single combat, and their influence is limited by their low overall mobility, preventing them from constantly staying on top of their targets. > As tanks can handle burst damage very well, they tend to succeed against assassins and most mages, but their vulnerability to continuous damage puts them at a disadvantage against fighters and marksmen. Subcategories of Tanks are vanguards, and wardens. So melee, high durability, high utility, low damage Janna, Morgana, yuumi, soraka are all ranged, more so they tend to be squishy as all hell and very easy to kill if you get a hold of them... so not tanks Riven deals damage, therefore not a tank Mundo has no hard cc, nor any ally shielding or healing... so he has 0 utility. Therefore can’t be a tank simple as that. His job is to absorb damage but he does that by being a damage threat, he’s closer to how Darius plays than any tank. > again this bs logic, tanks absorb damage, doesn't mean they can't deal damage, go play some rpgs and come back to this discussion, you have no idea what a tank is. Nobody cares about some RPGs, we are talking about league. And I’ve given you the definition it litterally says low damage. > right thats why leona/naut/rakan are causing a shit ton of damage whil absorbing so much they can go in vs 5 and live? They don’t though... maybe early game they have damage but mid to late game they have none... and rakan is squishy as hell lock him down and he dies immediately. > lol, by your logic riven/urgot/mordekaiser/vi/lee sin are tanks since they mitigates damage by thier shield whilst having cc, But they deal damage, again the major point you keep missing... making them fighters, high durability, high damage. > renekton/illaoi/nasus/kled/garen/darius/mundo/olaf were all released as fighter/TANKS, and kayne can be a tank (rhaast) due to him mitigating damage by excessive healing and having cc, again by your logic, jarvan was actually released as a TANK/fighter, so nope i hate to break it to you but, ALL of them are tanks. Under the old classification system that doesn’t work and riot got rid off... the same classification system that had gangplank as a support. Do some research into the new class system, like i tiny amount and you’d figure out how wrong you are https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list That’s riot litterally telling you that you are wrong... can’t get more primary source than that. > happened with all my mains, your point being? and all champions i named are tanks, so your statement makes no sense. But they aren’t... you can’t balance low damage champions based on what high damage champions are doing. Saying tanks are dealing too much damage when it’s fighters dealing damage and tanks dying means tanks get nerfed... that’s not solving anyone’s issues and causing more > actually riot mentioned that the community can classify them as they see fit, so you say hes a juggernaut and you're right, i say he's a tank and i'm right, no champion is officially classified atm, https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses , besides fighter class has juggs and divers, tanks have vanguards and wardens, and all champions have a main an sub class, hence i said we are both right, but the main issue is that they function too well as a tank. Did you even read that post > Tanks excel in shrugging off incoming damage and focus on disrupting their enemies **more than being significant damage threats themselves.** You litterally showed you’ve got no idea what your talking about. And yes you personally can put champions in other places but when we talk about balancing we should use the one Riot uses... cause these champion classes are how riot balances the game, nobody gives a shit what we think as it’s how riot thinks that affects the game. > maybe in bronze and silver, but they are full tank gold+, support is not a classificiation -.- thats a role, any champ can be support O.o, you are mixing things up here. Are you trying to act dumb? Support tank isn’t a class but it’s a role. Tanks who go support. The class is tank, the role is support. Same as you can have top tanks, jungle tanks ect. I’m not mixing anything up, tanks are struggling because their items are inefficient, tanks designed for the support role have special tools to help alleviate their low income hence why they aren’t struggling, they don’t have to put up with their bad items. And no even high elo those champions often build damage first, especially jungle tanks. Not that they actually get played at all. > lel and non of it is set in stone But in the here and now that’s the definition we are going to use. > nope, seen all the champs i mentioned pentakill, damage is out of control atm, so yeah even tanks are op. Damage is out of control because tanks are dead. Think about it without their cc and ability to take damage then damage gets felt much more than before, and without low damage champions being played there’s more damage champions per team than before... so you’ve got more damage in the game and less of it can be taken, hence high damage And those champions are building damage, of course they can kill. > see above i already proofed they are tanks. No you didn’t... you litterally said “I don’t agree with the proof so they are tanks” that’s not how it works. > all of them are tanks, by players logic and by classification. Most players call them bruisers not tanks, and by classification as I’ve just shown you riot themselves call them fighters not tanks... your wrong on both accounts
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=00010000000000000000000200010000,timestamp=2020-01-08T13:56:11.913+0000) > > Any champion who is tanky, deals little damage, and supplies utility (namely cc) is a tank... that’s riot’s classification > funny how we can't name any, and thats wrong just look at the blitz spotlight, riot released champions on multiple classifications. > So melee, high durability, high utility, low damage > yes what they are supposed to be, lol this applies to no champion. > Janna, Morgana, yuumi, soraka are all ranged, more so they tend to be squishy as all hell and very easy to kill if you get a hold of them... so not tanks > so what happend to, CC and mitigating damage? they all have shields to block damage, it even prevents them from being oneshotted often, by your own and player logic they are tanks, or are you telling me the main purpose of tanks is to directly absorb and or mitigate damage .o.? you do realize cc does not absorb or mitigate damage, but controls the crowd, so cc has really nothing to do with tanks, i do however agree that you can have control tanks and threat tanks wardens/vanguards, i personally do not want to see threat (vanguards) tanks, because this is not an rpg game, and a tank that absorbs and or mitigates damage should not be able to do as much damage as a burst or dps champion, and yet here we are..... > Riven deals damage, therefore not a tank > lol a tank also deals damage, so not a tank either? > Mundo has no hard cc, nor any ally shielding or healing... so he has 0 utility. Therefore can’t be a tank simple as that. His job is to absorb damage but he does that by being a damage threat, he’s closer to how Darius plays than any tank. > lol so you admit he's a tank? he absorbs damage, he has excessive self healing to mitigate damage as well, that he causes damage is an bonus, utility is not needed, his presence is enough to not be ignored, and so he functions as a frontliner soaking up the majority of damage, oh wait thats exactly what a tank does .o. > Nobody cares about some RPGs, we are talking about league. And I’ve given you the definition it litterally says low damage. > well, you should because rpgs tend to have tanks that cause more damage than your entire team called a ''boss''..... like mundo, these champs should not exist in league, because indeed league is not an rpg game, but a multiplayer game, so why does a player get to be the boss? and remain alive indefinitely whilst killing? > They don’t though... maybe early game they have damage but mid to late game they have none... and rakan is squishy as hell lock him down and he dies immediately. > are we playing the same game? maybe assassins can kill rakan after 2 combo's, but rakan is nowhere near squishy, tanks liek naut and leona definitely do alot of damage even late game O.o > But they deal damage, again the major point you keep missing... making them fighters, high durability, high damage. > and high defense!, tanks deal damage too, just look at leona and nautilus..... > Under the old classification system that doesn’t work and riot got rid off... the same classification system that had gangplank as a support. > > Do some research into the new class system, like i tiny amount and you’d figure out how wrong you are > > https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list > > That’s riot litterally telling you that you are wrong... can’t get more primary source than that. quote start ''the class / subclass structure is more a set of guidelines than rigid rules'' quote end, lol i'm wrong? and riot is right? or did they mention they could be wrong? > > But they aren’t... you can’t balance low damage champions based on what high damage champions are doing. Saying tanks are dealing too much damage when it’s fighters dealing damage and tanks dying means tanks get nerfed... that’s not solving anyone’s issues and causing more > never said that, what should be done is an overal damage nerf at ad, items need tweaking (they should give less diverse stats, and more unique stats, ofcourse this could mean more items to buy from) and some kits need tuning like riven's, and some champs do need a defense nerf as well..... instead everything gets buffed .-. or nerfed to death, there is no in between {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-rainbows}} > Did you even read that post > yes did you? > You litterally showed you’ve got no idea what your talking about. > > And yes you personally can put champions in other places but when we talk about balancing we should use the one Riot uses... cause these champion classes are how riot balances the game, nobody gives a shit what we think as it’s how riot thinks that affects the game. > that description fits just about any champ, CC reigns, even tanks are damage threats lol, or why don't you go 1vs1 a tank {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}} > Are you trying to act dumb? Support tank isn’t a class but it’s a role. Tanks who go support. The class is tank, the role is support. Same as you can have top tanks, jungle tanks ect. I’m not mixing anything up, tanks are struggling because their items are inefficient, tanks designed for the support role have special tools to help alleviate their low income hence why they aren’t struggling, they don’t have to put up with their bad items. > support is role, tank is class, your point is? even a garen can be support tank, heck even ashe can be, so yes you are mixing things up, support tanks are roles, tanks in general are classes an can go to any lane, whether this is effective is beside the point O.o > And no even high elo those champions often build damage first, especially jungle tanks. Not that they actually get played at all. lol is high elo silver with you? > > But in the here and now that’s the definition we are going to use. > thats debateable. > Damage is out of control because tanks are dead. Think about it without their cc and ability to take damage then damage gets felt much more than before, and without low damage champions being played there’s more damage champions per team than before... so you’ve got more damage in the game and less of it can be taken, hence high damage > > And those champions are building damage, of course they can kill. > no, damage is out of control because there is too much of it, buffing defense isn't making anyhthing better, you just raise the numbers O.o, that and items give damage too easy, and ofcourse ad penetration was added increasing more damage, tanks aren't dead, its just that there is too much damage in such a little time, and only some champions have inbuild healing/shields, and even without building damage they can kill, look at mundo. > No you didn’t... you litterally said “I don’t agree with the proof so they are tanks” that’s not how it works. > go look up the classification of these champs when they got released, most of them are fighter/tanks or tank/fighters, and by player logic any champ that absorbs/mitigates damage with CC is a tank, so how is that not proven? on top of that the discription of juggernaut fits that of a tank as well, tanking means taking damage, so a tank is just that, even if they are sub tanks, they are simply less efficient at tanking but still more efficient than average, meaning like i said tanks CAN cause damage whilst tanking damage, i just don't think thats a good idea in this game, as we can all see the effects of it, and it kinda beats the purpose of PURE tanks, which don't exist anymore at this point, hence riot decided to SUB class all champions. > Most players call them bruisers not tanks, and by classification as I’ve just shown you riot themselves call them fighters not tanks... your wrong on both accounts lel yeah main fighters but sub tanks, again that still means they are tanks, the players however mainly use them for burst/ph damage, that doesn't mean they can't soak up or mitigate alot of damage, aka tanking damage too for the team, this game is becoming more and more individual gameplay and less of a team game really.
: > jarvan is actually officially classified as main tank, he is incredibly tanky even if he doesn't build full tank. > > same as jarvan blitzcrank is also officially classified as tank, all the champions i mentioned were made as tanks, its later some of their classes changed, and i witnessed this over the years...... riot has issues classifying, still doesn't take away they are tanks though. Nop... your a few seasons off... J4 was originally introduced as an tanky dps initiator and was classed as a tank for that reason since the concept of divers classification didn't exist back than. In the early days he was classed as a tank / fighter in seasons where he was much more tanky and builded way more tanky than he is right now. This all changed and his tankness has been repeatedly been nerfed over last seasons and actually is more damage oriënted than he ever was. But even in early seasons it was visible where he took offensive runes & masteries when building tanky the moment he got a lead (like any champion in that season, even assassins). Blitz on the other hand was released as a toplane tank. He's one of the more tanky catchers we have right now but he not nearly as tanky as a real tank and most of his tankness becomes from his base stats as support & his passive.
> [{quoted}](name=CoolKnightST,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-08T13:46:35.881+0000) > > Nop... your a few seasons off... J4 was originally introduced as an tanky dps initiator and was classed as a tank for that reason since the concept of divers classification didn't exist back than. In the early days he was classed as a tank / fighter in seasons where he was much more tanky and builded way more tanky than he is right now. This all changed and his tankness has been repeatedly been nerfed over last seasons and actually is more damage oriënted than he ever was. But even in early seasons it was visible where he took offensive runes & masteries when building tanky the moment he got a lead (like any champion in that season, even assassins). > > Blitz on the other hand was released as a toplane tank. He's one of the more tanky catchers we have right now but he not nearly as tanky as a real tank and most of his tankness becomes from his base stats as support & his passive. lol? even going by player logic, both of these champions have shields and cc, making them tanks even now...... since they mitigate damage, eh blitz was released as tank/fighter/mage not for top lane but as versatile support O.o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtmMC23DdT0 , they even call him a PURE tank lel and even j4 is in there .o.
DeCoqq (EUW)
: None of those champs oneshot anyone (maybe yuumi) with tank build. 1. Q+e+aa+r = 270+184+92+375=921 2. R+aa+w+e+q = 300+97+157(aa+w+15% from lets say 200armor)+180+270= 1040 3. Dont make me laugh 4. Look at point 3 5. Q+w+aa+e+r = 300+175+111+174(aa+e+bonus health)+595 = 1345 Those numbers were calculated with lvl11 and no ap/ad items and without enemy resists. I.e. lvl 11 cait has 1280hp without items, so not even cho can oneshot her when you take resists into calculation. Now, give me your numbers how you oneshot with full tank build, i'll look forward to see them
> [{quoted}](name=DeCoqq,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=00010000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2020-01-08T12:50:36.789+0000) > > None of those champs oneshot anyone (maybe yuumi) with tank build. > 1. Q+e+aa+r = 270+184+92+375=921 1. Q = 270 + E = (121+121) 242 + R = 500 = 1012 at lvl 18 and thats without using the right tank items like abyssal mask/banshee's veil/iceborn gauntlet/rod of ages/rylai's crystal scepter/zhonya's hourglass, total ap = 340 + 100% ad bonus damage + 15% extra magic damage per ability Q = 701.5 + E = 484 + R = 966 = 2151.5 total damage at lvl 18, heck you can even add another AA to that after the R which does 242 extra damage, adding it up to 2393.5, im just saying, blitz can oneshot as a tank, squishies but still, heck and adaptive power runes can add more ap, so i'd say blitz does about 2500 damage in one combo, with a tank build. > 2. R+aa+w+e+q = 300+97+157(aa+w+15% from lets say 200armor)+180+270= 1040 2. Q = 270 + W = 450 + E = 200 + R = 400 = 1320at lvl 18 bare minimum, now with abyssal mask/banshee's veil/iceborn gauntlet/rod of ages/sorc shoes/zhonya's hourglass, thats 250 ap/145.75 armor/129.7 ad Q = 347 + W = 996 + E = 408 + R = 600 = 2351 total damage at lvl 18, malph is still capable of oneshotting adc with a full combo, add another AA after the R and you get 2610 damage. > 3. Dont make me laugh laughing is healthy, though this is not a joke, sion with ad tank items, or just plain 3-4 warmogs is op af, i've seen him oneshot towers as well lol. 3. Q = 602 + W = 450 + E = 246 + R = 1526 at lvl 18 bare minimum (with maximum Q and R damage), now with abyssal mask/banshee/maw of malmortius/mercury's threads/black cleaver/titanic hydra, thats 75 ap/266 ad, lets say the opponent has 2000 health, Q = 862 + W = 450 + E = 246 + R = 1572 = 3130 damage at lvl 18, even if you reduce the R damage it would still be about 2500 damage, just saying. > 4. Look at point 3 lol same applies to jarvan, look at point 3 right back at ya .o. > 5. Q+w+aa+e+r = 300+175+111+174(aa+e+bonus health)+595 = 1345 > 5. Q = 300 + W = 275 + E = 210 + R = 843 = 1628 at lvl 18 bare minimum, now with abyssal mask/banshee's veil/iceborn gauntlet/rod of ages/sorc shoes/zhonya's hourglass, thats 250 ap/2784.4 hp/140.4 ad/6 feast stack, and lets say opponents hp is 2000 Q = 550 + W = 450 + E = 1184+ R = 1053 = 3237 total damage at lvl 18 i don't think cho needs another AA after his ult^^ > Those numbers were calculated with lvl11 and no ap/ad items and without enemy resists. I.e. lvl 11 cait has 1280hp without items, so not even cho can oneshot her when you take resists into calculation. > > Now, give me your numbers how you oneshot with full tank build, i'll look forward to see them i calculated more accurately with lvl 18 and items, even if these items give ad/ap, they are still tank items, no one builds full tank without ad/ap ratios {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
: > mundo builds full tank and destroys the rift utterly, amumu builds both ap and tank items and still functions as tank, what have leona her class is still tank. Mundo is a bruiser, he deals damage not utility... doesn’t matter if he’s building full tank he isn’t one If amumu functions as a tank he wouldn’t be dealing damage, he currently functions as a bruiser because he builds damage... tanks don’t need to. Like I said this issue pertains to top and jungle tanks, support tanks are relatively fine (they where never tanky to begin with due to their item builds). > gnar/riven/renekton/urgot/illaoi/nasus/kled/garen/darius/mordekaiser/mundo/shen/sion/malphite are all played top and are all more than succesfull and are all accomplishing tank roles...... only mundo, shen, sion and malphite are actually classified tanks, and heck i even left out most of the skirmishers and bruisers that are incredibly tanky, its that they don't have a tank role or else, and ofcourse jungle has some tanks like amumu/rammus/zac/nunu/olaf/kayne/sejuani/jarvan/vi and lee, lets not forget support tanks like tresh/rakan/leona/nautilus/galio/pyke/blitzcrank and braum, and don't give me that crap about bUt ThEy AReNt AlL taNkS, idc about riots classification, they all absorb damage like crazy for their team, and the ones i mentioned are most played, there are more tanks. Riven, renekton, urgot, illaoi, Nassir, kled, garen, Darius, mordekaiser, mundo are all not tanks Olaf, kayn, Jarvin, vi, and lee aren’t tanks Rakan, and pyke aren’t tanks (seriously both of them are squishy) And i genially don’t care if you find them hard to kill, or if you care about riot’s classification system... trying to say that tanks are an issue then listing champions who aren’t tanks is the exact same reason why tanks are dying... they keep getting nerfed for the one things. How would you feel if your favourite champion got nerfed because a completely different one was causing issues... Also your using the wrong classification system, riot disowned that one years ago. In the new one mundo is a juggernaut. And of course as I was saying Shen, sion and malphite are built full damage so aren’t tanks anymore, an shen is more a support now Amumu, rammus, and zac are full damage, sej is dead... so you’ve only got nunu there. And support tanks aren’t in a difficult spot so again we are focusing on top and jungle So out of all of the tanks in top and jungle 1 is viable without having to build damage and pretend to be a bruiser... yeah tanks are totally too strong. > 13 out of 32 champs i mentioned are offical tanks, where tresh/pyke and rakan are classified as support, leaves 29 champions not classified as tank, but still functioning as a tank, and heck the ones i mentioned are not the only ones, there are more...... https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_classes/Tank Here’s the actual tank class... not the outdated stuff your using (ignore the chogath riot actually put him in unique playstyle). So there are 19 tanks in the game... {{champion:12}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:154}} these are the only true tanks in the game and the only ones we are talking about... the others are all bruisers, skirmishes, or assasins that you feel is vaguely hard to kill so feel must be a tank... which isn’t how balancing works. Out of these 19; 8 of them are only played support so we ignore them as they get spared of tank items being garbage compared to anti tank thanks to their builds, out of the remaining lot 7 of them are build as bruisers and build damage so thus don’t behave how intended nor act like tanks, and 3 of them just are outright never played anymore So out of the 19 true tanks in the game only 1 is actually played as a tank... and that’s Orrn. > you don't find it an issue when one of them walks in on you while you stand under your turret, taking 5+ turret hits and full attacks and ults from you and 4 of your teammates, and still manages to kill 2 or 3 of your teammates whilst walking out ALIVE, healing to 100% hp due to warmog, to come for you again........? Except if a tank is actually being played as a tank that can’t happen... I mean them tanking that much yeah but they build to survive if they where easy to kill what’s the point... but they can’t kill 2-3 of your teammates without dying first...what your thinking of is juggernauts... again bruisers causing issues, then tanks getting the blame... so tanks get nerfed and the class causing the issues go Scot free. So no tanks aren’t an issue and they’ve never been an issue... seriously during the ‘tank’ meta there was only 1-2 tanks viable in the meta at any one time... most of the issues where caused by bruisers and assasins... and yet tanks got the blame EDIT: Gnar isn’t classed as a tank, only mega gnar is, nunu is also a tank... so 2 tanks played in the meta... so like usual only 2 viable tanks.
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=000100000000000000000002,timestamp=2020-01-07T13:06:57.591+0000) > > Mundo is a bruiser, he deals damage not utility... doesn’t matter if he’s building full tank he isn’t one > by your logic any champion that absorbs/mititgate damage and has utility is a tank, so i guess janna/morgana/riven/yuumi/soraka etc are all tanks? cc has nothing to do with tank role! mundo is actually calssified as fighter/tank, so no matter what you say mundo is still a tank, especially since he only has 2 damaging abilities, his main role is to absorb damage, not cause it -.- so he should be in my opinion a main tank sub fighter. > If amumu functions as a tank he wouldn’t be dealing damage, he currently functions as a bruiser because he builds damage... tanks don’t need to. > again this bs logic, tanks absorb damage, doesn't mean they can't deal damage, go play some rpgs and come back to this discussion, you have no idea what a tank is. > Like I said this issue pertains to top and jungle tanks, support tanks are relatively fine (they where never tanky to begin with due to their item builds). > right thats why leona/naut/rakan are causing a shit ton of damage whil absorbing so much they can go in vs 5 and live? > Riven, renekton, urgot, illaoi, Nassir, kled, garen, Darius, mordekaiser, mundo are all not tanks > Olaf, kayn, Jarvin, vi, and lee aren’t tanks > Rakan, and pyke aren’t tanks (seriously both of them are squishy) > lol, by your logic riven/urgot/mordekaiser/vi/lee sin are tanks since they mitigates damage by thier shield whilst having cc, renekton/illaoi/nasus/kled/garen/darius/mundo/olaf were all released as fighter/TANKS, and kayne can be a tank (rhaast) due to him mitigating damage by excessive healing and having cc, again by your logic, jarvan was actually released as a TANK/fighter, so nope i hate to break it to you but, ALL of them are tanks. > And i genially don’t care if you find them hard to kill, or if you care about riot’s classification system... trying to say that tanks are an issue then listing champions who aren’t tanks is the exact same reason why tanks are dying... they keep getting nerfed for the one things. How would you feel if your favourite champion got nerfed because a completely different one was causing issues... > happened with all my mains, your point being? and all champions i named are tanks, so your statement makes no sense. > Also your using the wrong classification system, riot disowned that one years ago. In the new one mundo is a juggernaut. > actually riot mentioned that the community can classify them as they see fit, so you say hes a juggernaut and you're right, i say he's a tank and i'm right, no champion is officially classified atm, https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses , besides fighter class has juggs and divers, tanks have vanguards and wardens, and all champions have a main an sub class, hence i said we are both right, but the main issue is that they function too well as a tank. > And of course as I was saying > > Shen, sion and malphite are built full damage so aren’t tanks anymore, an shen is more a support now > Amumu, rammus, and zac are full damage, sej is dead... so you’ve only got nunu there. > And support tanks aren’t in a difficult spot so again we are focusing on top and jungle > maybe in bronze and silver, but they are full tank gold+, support is not a classificiation -.- thats a role, any champ can be support O.o, you are mixing things up here. > So out of all of the tanks in top and jungle 1 is viable without having to build damage and pretend to be a bruiser... yeah tanks are totally too strong. > > https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_classes/Tank > > Here’s the actual tank class... not the outdated stuff your using (ignore the chogath riot actually put him in unique playstyle). > lel and non of it is set in stone {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}} > So there are 19 tanks in the game... {{champion:12}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:154}} these are the only true tanks in the game and the only ones we are talking about... the others are all bruisers, skirmishes, or assasins that you feel is vaguely hard to kill so feel must be a tank... which isn’t how balancing works. > nope, all champions i mentioned are tanks. > Out of these 19; 8 of them are only played support so we ignore them as they get spared of tank items being garbage compared to anti tank thanks to their builds, out of the remaining lot 7 of them are build as bruisers and build damage so thus don’t behave how intended nor act like tanks, and 3 of them just are outright never played anymore > > So out of the 19 true tanks in the game only 1 is actually played as a tank... and that’s Orrn. > O.o wrong. > Except if a tank is actually being played as a tank that can’t happen... I mean them tanking that much yeah but they build to survive if they where easy to kill what’s the point... but they can’t kill 2-3 of your teammates without dying first...what your thinking of is juggernauts... again bruisers causing issues, then tanks getting the blame... so tanks get nerfed and the class causing the issues go Scot free. > nope, seen all the champs i mentioned pentakill, damage is out of control atm, so yeah even tanks are op. > So no tanks aren’t an issue and they’ve never been an issue... seriously during the ‘tank’ meta there was only 1-2 tanks viable in the meta at any one time... most of the issues where caused by bruisers and assasins... and yet tanks got the blame > see above i already proofed they are tanks. > EDIT: > > Gnar isn’t classed as a tank, only mega gnar is, nunu is also a tank... so 2 tanks played in the meta... so like usual only 2 viable tanks. all of them are tanks, by players logic and by classification.
: Amumu, Galio, Malphite, Zac, Gragas, Nunu and even recently Nautilus are all building AP. A lot more than they should been building. The only real viable tanks on your list are: Leona, Rammus, Sejuani and the secret why those 3 can work as tanks is simply because they are stat sticks (rammus & leona particular that gain raw stats from their abilities). While Sejuani get's it from a stat boost on her passive. It's less up compaired to rammus & leona but still provide a big factor in the game. You have to look add it as early vs lategame tanks. While Rammus, Leona and Sejuani are great tanking damage in the early-midgame. Picks like Amumu, Galio, Malphite, Zac, Nunu take this over towards the lategame. The problem is that their early tankness is to weak to survive for lategame so they are forced to build damage to compensate on ever reaching it. Another great example of this is {{champion:14}} that has a similar issue but than in the AD department rather than building AP.In that regard shen is every similar in this and only start to get tanky towards the lategame and really loves to starting building AD and attackspeed. Jarvan is a diver and shouldn't be on this list. Why do you think someone that rushes {{item:3071}} into {{item:3026}} is a tank?? He's probally one of the better designed divers out their and so way he should ever be conciderd in the same pool as tanks. Blitz is not a tank but a catcher. He's provided with some early tankness because of his passive but that's mainly to protect himself from burst. He's not your I frontline your ass type of guy. He builds tank items to allow him to get in hook range not in order to soak damage. He's more a guy that is sitting in the middle of a teamcomp that goes to front from time to time.
> [{quoted}](name=CoolKnightST,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-07T12:12:32.640+0000) > > Amumu, Galio, Malphite, Zac, Gragas, Nunu and even recently Nautilus are all building AP. A lot more than they should been building. The only real viable tanks on your list are: Leona, Rammus, Sejuani and the secret why those 3 can work as tanks is simply because they are stat sticks (rammus & leona particular that gain raw stats from their abilities). While Sejuani get's it from a stat boost on her passive. It's less up compaired to rammus & leona but still provide a big factor in the game. > > You have to look add it as early vs lategame tanks. While Rammus, Leona and Sejuani are great tanking damage in the early-midgame. Picks like Amumu, Galio, Malphite, Zac, Nunu take this over towards the lategame. The problem is that their early tankness is to weak to survive for lategame so they are forced to build damage to compensate on ever reaching it. Another great example of this is {{champion:14}} that has a similar issue but than in the AD department rather than building AP.In that regard shen is every similar in this and only start to get tanky towards the lategame and really loves to starting building AD and attackspeed. > non of that takes away the fact they are tanks. > Jarvan is a diver and shouldn't be on this list. Why do you think someone that rushes {{item:3071}} into {{item:3026}} is a tank?? He's probally one of the better designed divers out their and so way he should ever be conciderd in the same pool as tanks. > jarvan is actually officially classified as main tank, he is incredibly tanky even if he doesn't build full tank. > Blitz is not a tank but a catcher. He's provided with some early tankness because of his passive but that's mainly to protect himself from burst. He's not your I frontline your ass type of guy. He builds tank items to allow him to get in hook range not in order to soak damage. He's more a guy that is sitting in the middle of a teamcomp that goes to front from time to time. same as jarvan blitzcrank is also officially classified as tank, all the champions i mentioned were made as tanks, its later some of their classes changed, and i witnessed this over the years...... riot has issues classifying, still doesn't take away they are tanks though.
DeCoqq (EUW)
: Apparently you don't know the definition of tank or how it is functioning. You are listing lot of juggernauts/bruisers (which build ad/ap items) and complain about tanks. Tell me one tank that does more dmg with tank build than i.e mages or bruisers with their normal builds?
> [{quoted}](name=DeCoqq,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2020-01-07T12:17:48.830+0000) > > Apparently you don't know the definition of tank or how it is functioning. You are listing lot of juggernauts/bruisers (which build ad/ap items) and complain about tanks. > Tell me one tank that does more dmg with tank build than i.e mages or bruisers with their normal builds? definition of a tank is to absorb direct or mitigate damage team members take, all champions i mentioned do this, just because they can cause damage, doesn't mean they aren't tanks, and if we go by everyone's logic than all champions with hard cc are tanks..... and most of what they build are defense items, heck defense stats are often implemented in their kits, there is no difference between juggernaut and bruisers, and fyi all three classes tend to jump in head first to actually take the lead and survive to open up and absorb/mitigate damage, you are free to call them jugs or bruisers, but that doesn't make them any less tanks, i can give you more than one tank that does more damage than bruisers or mages, 1 blitzcrank is capable of oneshotting with full tank build 2 malphite is capable of oneshotting with full tank build 3 sion does a shit ton of damage 4 jarvan is capable of oneshotting 5 chogath do i need to explain why? and best of all i,s that they don't actually require alot of defense items to be tanky... its just sad.
: > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2020-01-05T10:45:04.462+0000) > > tank meta still going~ If we both playing same game and in "league of legends" there is a tank meta atm you probably never played s6 or earlier. I don't really want to tank meta, I want to build some resistances when I am behind so I can actually survive more than 1 combo with 2400 hp 140 Mr against any AP champion.
> [{quoted}](name=consensuaI clown,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2020-01-07T13:34:13.607+0000) > > If we both playing same game and in "league of legends" there is a tank meta atm you probably never played s6 or earlier. I don't really want to tank meta, I want to build some resistances when I am behind so I can actually survive more than 1 combo with 2400 hp 140 Mr against any AP champion. its ad thats off the charts not ap O.o, 100 mr is enough these days vs 250 armor, often still not being sufficient {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} try surviving assassins {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
: Mundo isn’t a tank, amumu gets played ap so barely counts anymore, Leona is a support tank so gets to bypass most of the issues Top lane tanks have been dead for years, and frankly there’s never been a tank meta it’s akways bruisers or assasins causing issues
> [{quoted}](name=swampert919,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-06T13:10:53.030+0000) > > Mundo isn’t a tank, amumu gets played ap so barely counts anymore, Leona is a support tank so gets to bypass most of the issues > mundo builds full tank and destroys the rift utterly, amumu builds both ap and tank items and still functions as tank, what have leona her class is still tank. > Top lane tanks have been dead for years, and frankly there’s never been a tank meta it’s akways bruisers or assasins causing issues nonsense, gnar/riven/renekton/urgot/illaoi/nasus/kled/garen/darius/mordekaiser/mundo/shen/sion/malphite are all played top and are all more than succesfull and are all accomplishing tank roles...... only mundo, shen, sion and malphite are actually classified tanks, and heck i even left out most of the skirmishers and bruisers that are incredibly tanky, its that they don't have a tank role or else, and ofcourse jungle has some tanks like amumu/rammus/zac/nunu/olaf/kayne/sejuani/jarvan/vi and lee, lets not forget support tanks like tresh/rakan/leona/nautilus/galio/pyke/blitzcrank and braum, and don't give me that crap about bUt ThEy AReNt AlL taNkS, idc about riots classification, they all absorb damage like crazy for their team, and the ones i mentioned are most played, there are more tanks. https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/amumu/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/blitzcrank/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/galio/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/jarvaniv/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/leona/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/malphite/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/nautilus/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/nunu/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/rammus/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/sejuani/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/shen/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/sion/ https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/champion/zac/ 13 out of 32 champs i mentioned are offical tanks, where tresh/pyke and rakan are classified as support, leaves 29 champions not classified as tank, but still functioning as a tank, and heck the ones i mentioned are not the only ones, there are more...... you don't find it an issue when one of them walks in on you while you stand under your turret, taking 5+ turret hits and full attacks and ults from you and 4 of your teammates, and still manages to kill 2 or 3 of your teammates whilst walking out ALIVE, healing to 100% hp due to warmog, to come for you again........? yes bruisers and assassins are an issue, but so are tanks, the rest is underwhelming, with some exceptions.
DeCoqq (EUW)
: Tanks are garbage, have been for years
> [{quoted}](name=DeCoqq,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=156YEbwV,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2020-01-05T20:30:20.524+0000) > > Tanks are garbage, have been for years go telll that to mundo, amumu and leona.
: Riot did everything to make squishies hardest ones to kill while tanks are papers compared
tank meta still going~ its not that squishies are stronger, fizz is an assassin, and riot favors them, the real squishies are oneshotted, mind you darius/shen/amumu/mundo/leona/garen are op af atm, and only 3 of them are real tanks, 2 of those are just as tanky though, so we have a burst oneshot meta with assassins/adc/ and some mages, and a tank meta at the same time with some unkillable champions, and than the rest of the champions {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-rainbows}}
Get Juk3d (EUNE)
: why do people smurf?
players smurf because: 1 they build up an acc to sell it and start anew (this is not allowed) 2 they don't like the gameplay platinum+ and want to go back to silver, due to different strategies, champs, atmosphere 3 diamond+ has alot of winswapping kinda ruining gameplay, due to decay 4 matchmaking takes longer platinum+, most players are in silver, so wider range of players or/and faster matchmaking 5 longer matches, most gold 1/2+ players strife to finish games in about 15 minutes 6 playing ranked with friends that are lower ranked 7 they started a new acc on a different server to get a new experience or improve their gameplay
: TFT Ocean/Mage
predator, glacials, berserkers, light, assassins are the most op classes atm..... you NEVER see blademasters/rangers, rarely mages and woodland, soulbound has toned down as well, shadow is practically nonexistant, and summoners are used rarely too, ocean doesn't do much besides give some mana over a couple of seconds, well its useless when battles are over in 4 seconds with predators, assassins and berserkers.
: Why can't riot display owned skins right by the default skin intead of off the screen?
incompetence. riot fks up everything..... balance/gameplay skins new modes items boards internal strife in the company usernames client champions etc etc....{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=0001000000010004000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:59:07.365+0000) > > are you really this dumb? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} It seems I understand parallel computing a lot more than you. > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=0001000000010004000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:59:07.365+0000) > > no, the only thing solved is that, players no longer come late into the room..... other than that they still get autofilled -.- so no problem not solved, LoL counst 100 million players a month, it used to be more though.... so maybe riot needs to improve their game to implement non forced lane picks.... That's called 30 minutes queue. Riot doesn't want that and it's perfectly understandable. > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=0001000000010004000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:59:07.365+0000) > > you don't find players that play the game a reliable source? what source do you want? > thats not even half the player base..... so no its not enough to say its popular -.-, if at least 50% of the playerbase would play it i would say its popular..... > i play since beta and no there were no comments like that as i see now -.- because the game was actually balanced.... Well if you find that 30 millions player does not make a popular game, you can keep your hypocrisy to yourself. Nobody needs it. And you have a very bad memory of beta. > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=0001000000010004000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:59:07.365+0000) > > how is that important? a 40% discount if you are LUCKY, if you only get shards of champions you already own its pointless.... > besides you are still required to pay 60% in BE, so you MUST disenchant to upgrade..... > so you can't calculate that in -.-, everyone disenchants..... > > you still pay for runepages..... > 6300 BE.... no discount on that, which is more than the runes cost back then in IP, 15 K average for a rune page included a rune page with the cost of 3150 IP...... 120 K on 8 rune pages in IP vs 50400 in BE with a difference of 69600, so 3150 IP = 6300 BE, i already showed you that you get 3500 IP in the least and 1435 BE on average per 25 matches..... > thats 107 matches to get 1 rune page in IP, and 109 matches to get 1 rune page in BE....... IP still cheaper than BE..... > thats 857 matches in IP vs 878 matches in BE to get 8 rune pages, a difference of 21 matches...... heck i didn't even caluclate double IP weekend with that so thats definitely more than 21 matches there..... Not everyone disenchant. You don't have to pay for rune pages as you can modify it in champion select. There is a lot of hypocrisy again here. > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=0001000000010004000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:59:07.365+0000) > > go one take your lithium you are still in denial ^^ you can't even differentiate opinion from facts anymore^^ let me guess assasin or riven main? ^^ And which fact are you talking about? And to wrap up by judging your analysis ability, I'm a Leona support OTP. Too bad.
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-12T11:09:26.173+0000) > > It seems I understand parallel computing a lot more than you. > it seems you are from a parallel universe..... you do realize parallel computing isn't the only way.... just adding servers is easier.... we talking requests from players to join a server here, if the server can only hold 10000 players, you gonna need to fix that, so you could add another server for instance, or apply more hardware to carry it, or a software change/fix, (parallel computing could solve it, but its not a given.) > That's called 30 minutes queue. > Riot doesn't want that and it's perfectly understandable. > than riot needs to start using their brains^^ > Well if you find that 30 millions player does not make a popular game, you can keep your hypocrisy to yourself. Nobody needs it. > And you have a very bad memory of beta. > lol and your memory is perfect? whose a hyporcite now? and why would you think 30 million in a game with over 100 million players would make a mode popular? like i said thats only 3/10th of their player base O.o, and the majority only plays for the rewards -.- > Not everyone disenchant. You don't have to pay for rune pages as you can modify it in champion select. There is a lot of hypocrisy again here. > and players keep doing that during champion select? how is this hypocrisy? you need to learn the definition of it -.- that still doesn't take away you can purchase 8 pages..... > And which fact are you talking about? > > And to wrap up by judging your analysis ability, I'm a Leona support OTP. Too bad. the fact that a OTP player talks about balance..... is the game too hard for you, and you are in denial of it? can't win without OTP leona? no wonder you are mad, she was one i mentioned earlier lel, she should be nerfed.....
: > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000100000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:21:54.001+0000) > > this system is as efficient as riots balance team .o. > it punishes anyone regardless of situation, trolls run rampant, there are a shit ton of afkers almost every match -.-, the only thing that gets filtered out is bad language, which NO ONE cares about, but riot...... That's the fun thing with you, you always amaze me by your ability to contradict yourself in a single sentence. "The system bans everyone and no one at the same time", like Riot invented the quantum ban. > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000100000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:21:54.001+0000) > > the reason the tribunal was removed, wasn't because it was slow, it was actually fast, the ''error'' part was low, the actually reason was nepotism..... the judges were biased. Yeah, of course, if you want to ignore just straight facts, it's up to you but discussion won't move an inch. You are a flat earther, right? > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000100000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:21:54.001+0000) > > who the fk are you to say most of the complains are unjustified? its the opposite most complains are certainly justified, players play the game and notice stuff they don't like/enjoy or are downright broken, keep your biased assumptions to yourself please. Someone who is able to step back and put things in perspective. Unlike most of the players crying to nerf a champion they don't know how to counter instead of learning of to counter it, because it's easier like this. Talking about bias...
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=000100000001000400000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:27:59.941+0000) > > That's the fun thing with you, you always amaze me by your ability to contradict yourself in a single sentence. > "The system bans everyone and no one at the same time", like Riot invented the quantum ban. > what contradiction? the part about where i mentioned how the system punishes everyone regardless of situation? maybe learn to read? how is a system that can't tell the difference between victim and perpetrator efficient? or did you think i meant it as the system is out of control punishing players randomly? playing dumb here huh? although that does happen as well..... > Yeah, of course, if you want to ignore just straight facts, it's up to you but discussion won't move an inch. You are a flat earther, right? > what facts? i just said it was nepotism.... the whole reason the tribunal was removed..... riot didn't want to spend money on staff to dish out punishments so they came up with an automated system thats cost efficient...... ofcourse they failed and it still requires staff to check up on certain punishments..... this system is worse, the players decide what is toxic... so its still abusable by players, this system is the tribunal on a collective scale, they hoped that if it weren't individuals that dished out punishments, but the entire community it would be ok....... {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} and no, i'm not a flat earther -.- it seems you are out of arguments so now you start namecalling? > Someone who is able to step back and put things in perspective. Unlike most of the players crying to nerf a champion they don't know how to counter instead of learning of to counter it, because it's easier like this. Talking about bias... well it seems like you stepped into the middle of the crowd and with all the shouting you don't know whats up or down anymore to me..... its not that players don't know how to counter, its that players are INCAPABLE or its rare and SITUATIONAL to counter certain champions, and even if you can counter them, they often still come out victor with sheer damage, like assassins still oneshot, some champions are too beefy, so no we aren't just talking personal champion nerfs, but overal gameplay nerfs, and lets face it, there certainly are a shit ton of champions that need nerfing, i named them in another post which you seem to ignore {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} i personally would like to see, riven/akali/lee sin/yasuo/tryndamere and darius nerfed, i can give you argumentation as to why as well, but something tells me you don't want to hear it.... here listen to this instead you need it .o. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJGpsL_XYQI
: > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:06:35.945+0000) > > yeah thats why riot decided to split the global server into several servers per region..... to not lower the strain and reduce lag, as well as prevent server crashes..... That's why you should learn instead of talking when you don't know what you're talking about. > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:06:35.945+0000) > > its the same problem.... players don't get to play what they want unless you are a support main like me.... that change wasn't for the better, it only semi solved the problem.... Indeed, but at least now they have a moral contract telling them to play a specific role at least for this game. The problem can't be solved as long as every role won't attract as much people, but semi-solved means there there is a working solution in place, which is undeniable. > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:06:35.945+0000) > > try chatting ingame, read the boards, read reddit, how many players complain about, randomness? about it being rigged? about items?, about balance of champions? and how many players are saying this game is good? the rng is good? the items are good? the champions are balanced?, how many players curse at glacials? only 3/10th of the playerbase plays TFT....... about 30 million out of a 100 million players So... no reliable source, right? You get the same petty comments about LoL, every day since it's creation. Wasn't LoL a good idea to you then? And if you say 30 millions players... like wtf? Isn't it enough to say it's popular? > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:06:35.945+0000) > > they just disenchant it into BE....., i did calculate it in, and i left out double IP weekend or is that the part you refuse to acknowledge? Not everyone disenchant them. Which is an important part that you omitted. Obviously because it makes the system balanced. Add to that the fact you don't pay for runes anymore which was an important investment, and every goes toward the new sytem. > [{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=00010000000100040000000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:06:35.945+0000) > > denialism much? go swallow lithium {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} No, just because there was a big block of unreadable text and the first sentence alone was sweating bullshit, it was not worth to dive into it. Maybe if you remake that block in a readable way and with fact, not some bullshit opinion based only on other bullshit opinion, I may read it.
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=BmZXcZ3O,comment-id=000100000001000400000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-12-12T10:22:08.722+0000) > > That's why you should learn instead of talking when you don't know what you're talking about. > are you really this dumb? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} > Indeed, but at least now they have a moral contract telling them to play a specific role at least for this game. The problem can't be solved as long as every role won't attract as much people, but semi-solved means there there is a working solution in place, which is undeniable. > no, the only thing solved is that, players no longer come late into the room..... other than that they still get autofilled -.- so no problem not solved, LoL counst 100 million players a month, it used to be more though.... so maybe riot needs to improve their game to implement non forced lane picks.... > So... no reliable source, right? You get the same petty comments about LoL, every day since it's creation. Wasn't LoL a good idea to you then? And if you say 30 millions players... like wtf? Isn't it enough to say it's popular? > you don't find players that play the game a reliable source? what source do you want? thats not even half the player base..... so no its not enough to say its popular -.-, if at least 50% of the playerbase would play it i would say its popular..... i play since beta and no there were no comments like that as i see now -.- because the game was actually balanced.... > Not everyone disenchant them. Which is an important part that you omitted. Obviously because it makes the system balanced. Add to that the fact you don't pay for runes anymore which was an important investment, and every goes toward the new sytem. > how is that important? a 40% discount if you are LUCKY, if you only get shards of champions you already own its pointless.... besides you are still required to pay 60% in BE, so you MUST disenchant to upgrade..... so you can't calculate that in -.-, everyone disenchants..... you still pay for runepages..... 6300 BE.... no discount on that, which is more than the runes cost back then in IP, 15 K average for a rune page included a rune page with the cost of 3150 IP...... 120 K on 8 rune pages in IP vs 50400 in BE with a difference of 69600, so 3150 IP = 6300 BE, i already showed you that you get 3500 IP in the least and 1435 BE on average per 25 matches..... thats 107 matches to get 1 rune page in IP, and 109 matches to get 1 rune page in BE....... IP still cheaper than BE..... thats 857 matches in IP vs 878 matches in BE to get 8 rune pages, a difference of 21 matches...... heck i didn't even caluclate double IP weekend with that so thats definitely more than 21 matches there..... > No, just because there was a big block of unreadable text and the first sentence alone was sweating bullshit, it was not worth to dive into it. Maybe if you remake that block in a readable way and with fact, not some bullshit opinion based only on other bullshit opinion, I may read it. go one take your lithium you are still in denial ^^ you can't even differentiate opinion from facts anymore^^ let me guess assasin or riven main? ^^
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Devilreaper XIII

Level 99 (EUW)
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