: {{champion:84}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:6}}
I would agree with everyone, but {{champion:68}} ? I started playing him lateley and i do have to say, his Q deals massive damage, his W has low cooldown, meaning he can always shield himself, his E is just a regular projectile and his Ult does hella damage, but if done correctly, easy avoidable. Hell, he can overheat and would be defensless there for a couple of seconds. So how come you find Rumble a monster when he‘s fed, if a normal ADC could take him on?
Lethermlol (EUNE)
: Veigar has a lot of skins, but please keep in mind he is a really old champion. Most of them are of low quality and some just a straight up recolor. Also he didn't get a skin for a long time (almost 2 years I believe), not saying champions like Ornn are less important, but I don't like how for you Veigar is in the Akali Lux Ahri category.
Well, Garen, Ryze and Twisted Fate are also on my list, but that‘s because these are champions that already have loads of Skins to choose from and not because Riot gives them new skins. Veigar too didn‘t have a Skin for a long time, but he already has enough Skins to begin with.
Shamose (EUW)
: Play them more and buy their other skins more.
Dude, what kind of answer is that? Ornn is already one of my most played Champs but he still only has 1 other Skin. You too should play those champs more often!
Rioter Comments
: His E didn't silence. It was his Q. He had an ult range and cd that allowed him to attack from any angle he chose while giving you about 1 second of time to counterplay. This was also a time where assasins were a major presence in the mid lane - he could handle all of them. I'd say he was probably the most frustrating champ to play against (at least for me) since he basically was a timebomb with no good way to shut down.
: > Also, champs can also lose if the rest of the team played like ass and the stupidity of the entire team brings the match to a defeat No doubt. Luckily this doesn't matter for this discussion, since we are talking about champsion GENERAL performance, not their individual performance in a specific match. For winratios (and the term "OP"), the law of big numbers applies and all factors expect the champions actual strength get nullified. > The footage where you see a Tank 1 v 5 an entire team, just because it‘s a tank is more „fact“ than winrates. You confuse facts with anecdotal evidence. In a situation like you are describing, a video of ONE situation, there are dozens of other variables that matter, like, as you said yourself, team mates, for example. Or gold advantage. Or counter picks. Or item builds. ONE situation says absolutely nothing about the general strength of a champ. It's ironic that, in one and the same post, you talk about external factors that influence individual performance of a champion ("team played like ass") and in that exact same you also claim that one situation tells you everything about a champion's strength. Dude...you just countered your own argument. You provided the perfect example, why your own argument is incorrect and you can NOT see the strength of a champion in one "footage". I would love to discuss this further with you, but before we do, please get some order in your arguments.
To whole point was that you said Riot is doing better than the rest and that they are balanced and have no problems, because winrates. Like, for you, Winrates is the Alpha and Omega of any discussion about balance. I said that the most obvious and glaring problems shouldn‘t exist since after 10 years and having ALL of the Money and ALL of the workers and ALL of the fame, but they exist and people have every right to say these days Riot doesn‘t know how to balance. Back in the day, less since it was the first couple of years and they had to get their own footing right first. But after 10 long %%%%ing years, you would expect from them to put more effort into nerfing, buffing and fixing the right things instead of making new Skins that cost from 1500 - 3000 RP. You wanna hear unbalancy? What about the stacks? Prime examples are Veigar, Cho’ Gath and Nasus. All can build themselves up as absolute Tanks, because their Stacks can be infinitely be stacked up and one Q of full Tank Nasus can one shot any ADC. Which sure wouldn‘t be such a huge problem, if his W Wither wouldn‘t slow his Enemy‘s movement down to 95%, making him basically stunned. And the cooldown of Wither start when it was casted, not when it‘s finished slowing him down, meaning that Nasus can catch up to a full speed Quinn, if he casted Wither once and he can keep on casting it since the time between being „freed“ from Wither and being casted on again is 1 second. So you have a fully tanked Nasus, with a never ending 95% movement slowdown chasing you down, needing only at most 3 Q shots on you. Or what about Darius? The one Champ some people still claim to be the most Broken Champion in League, even thou his winrate is not even above 50%? Easy, because he IS Broken and OP. Sure, he can get countered easy by ranged Top laners like Teemo, Jayce and maybe Quinn, but he is literally the biggest Nightmare to Melee‘s. His Passive is basically {{summoner:14}} , but it can be stacked AND if it‘s stacked 5 times, it will give your Ult 5x more TRUE Damage and if it kills an Enemy Champion, he can cast it again, up to 5 Times. His Q is a %%%%ing Heal for him if he hits you. His W deals damage and slows you down for 90%, which is almost a complete Stun. His E pulls you towards him and it‘s almost an instant spell. So it‘s like a Blitzcrank mini hook, instead of a Tresh hook which actually has a small gap of time where the Enemy can react to it. And for the love of god, it even has a Passive which gives him Armor Penetration from 15% - 35%. And to top it all off, Darius is almost a Tank, meaning he can just all the damage you throw at him, which is shit, because his Q heals him again. You seriously want to tell me this is a balanced champ and balanced kit, because the Winrate shows so? Sure, you can pick Teemo, throw a Blind dart at him when he pulls you and poke him all the time and let the Mushrooms do their thing. But the numbers of Top lane Champion Darius is countering is much higher than the numbers of Champions that counter him. It‘s especially worse when it‘s a pro Darius who just knows how to play against anyone. Or what about one of the most glaring Problems which became a joke lateley, Urgot‘s ult. To this day, god forsake why, if Urgot hit you with his Ult, you actually B‘d back to base, you healed yourself back to 100% and yet, the Ult continues and a 100% hp champion hets pulled from base, all the way back to the middle point of the map, just to get killed by Urgot‘s ult. I could go on and on, for instance that Rengar‘s Passive needs a cooldown, but i think i made my point clear. If you have 10 years behind you, one of THE most succesful games of all time, working full time 100% on that game, having now all the Money and the workers, shit like this should be easily fixed and worked on and not just make new walking animations and new Skins. People have every right to call LoL these days unbalanced.
: The winratios I used were Plat and above.
Sure you have. Also, champs can also lose if the rest of the team played like ass and the stupidity of the entire team brings the match to a defeat. Again, winrates sure as hell are %%%% bad argument points. The footage where you see a Tank 1 v 5 an entire team, just because it‘s a tank is more „fact“ than winrates. Also, my point was that after 10 years, they should be able to fix such simple shit like tanks and the other things, but they still haven‘t. Hence players these days can complain. But if your point is again „winrates“ to praise how Perfect LoL is, then don‘t reply at all man.
: Kassadin. Not sure if it was S3 or S4. Goddamn titanic drilling through your skull anytime he ulted on you.
Ok, i read a lot of people mentioning {{champion:38}} back in the day, but was he really that broken, just because his E (who needed 6 abilities to be used for it to be usable) had a silence back then?
: Yes, you do need numbers. Because numbers are the difference between an opinion and facts. If a champion is actually OP, he will win more. That's what OP means, having too much power. Power in League means "winning". So if a champ is OP, this will result in higher winratios. If that doesn't happen, he is not actually OP, he is just perceived as such. How else can a champ have "too much power" (i.e. OP) but not actually have more power, i.e. win more? That's illogical, it's a direct contradiction. You are right that winrate is often misinterpreted, for example when people only play champs that have good winratios. That's indeed bullshit and a misinterpretation of what winratio means, because it can't predcit YOUR individual performance with a champ. What it does, is describing the GENERAL performance of a champ. As it happens, that's the same thing the word "OP" does.
No, there ARE OP Champs, the only difference to them today and back in the day, they aren‘t as invincible anymore as previously. I mean, how come Tanks can eat 10‘000 points of damage, still live, have a kit that makes them even more broken (added shield which scales with either Health or AP or Armor or whatever), a an ability which gives them more Armor and MR, while also having moves that deal WAY too much damage for something that is a „Tank“ and an Ult which can either be a move that can 1 v 5 an entire team, survive by escaping or whatever (Illaoi, Nasus, Sion, Malphite, Cho‘ Gath, Garen, Urgot etc.) The Tanks in LoL ARE unbalanced and i know i‘m not the only one here. Also, i never look at winrates, because that includes every player that plays those champions. For instance, if a noob plays a complete Broken Champ like Nasus, if course he will not be OP, because he doesn‘t know anything too special about Nasus. But if a Pro player plays Nasus, he will abuse his Stacks, abuse his slows, abuse the insultingly small cooldown time and he will build him of course a complete Tank, because his Stacks with the W + Q combo does as much damage as full AD Jhin. He can than split push and the enemy team has better chances to fight a 5 v 4 match against the rest, than a 1 v 5 battle against such a busted Tank Or for another instance, why does Kindred have a much higher win rate than she is supposed to have? Simple, because no casual wants to play her. She is EXTREMELY risky to play and why play her if you could play someone that requires far less effort? Of course the casuals don‘t touch her, but the Pros can absolutely dominate with her. They know how to work her Passive, her ult, her abilities and etc. So no, winrates aren‘t „facts“ for me, the footage i see when watching plays or playing myself is. Because winrates includes newcomers who don‘t know what the Champ‘s passive even does AND pros who mastered the Champ in a calculated way. Of course broken champs aren‘t OP in the hands of newcomers.
: Everything you just said except the last sentence has nothing to do with balancing. And how balancing feels and how it actually is are two different things. Let's have a look at the numbers. Dota's Heroes winratios right now range from 42,3% to 55,6%. A total of 13,3% difference. League's champions winratios right now range from 44,6% to 53,5%. A total of 8,9% difference. Now don't get me wrong. Those 13,3% are still damn good. That's also a great achievement, good job Valve. But, factually, Leagues champions are simply balanced better. Significantly. Feelings are not an accurate measurement of balance. Numbers are.
Man, why do you people always come with „the win rate“ and expect it to be the A and O of an argument? I don‘t need numbers and win rates to know that Tanks are OP and busted. I don‘t need win rates and numbers to know that a guy who knows how to play a Yi can 1 v 5 the enemy and win. I don‘t need numbers and win rates to know that Kindred is a champ that requires you to play her pitch perfect for her to be good. One mistake and you lack behind. And i don‘t need numbers and win rates to know that Invisibility/ Stealth became BS since the special Wards don‘t detect them anymore.
: Money doesn't solve all problems. I might be biased because I work in the gaming industry myself, but in my opinion Riot is doing an incredibly good job at balancing. I mean...considering the complexity of the game...holy shit. I'm glad I am working on a muuuuuch simpler game, and that is already a challenge. Just look at it this way. Let's take chess. Chess is kind of an extremely simple version of League. You have champions, they can move and they have abilities. But, as I said, it's a very simple version because there are no minions, champions usually have a maximum of two move-sets (contrary to League, where you can move in an infinite amount of directions) and only one ability (that is, except for pawns, identical to their move-set and works the same for every champion). In addition, there are no items, no CC, no damage, no stats, only a handful of different champions, only two players, infinite time per move and only one champion can be moved at a time. Despite that simplicity, there are more ways a chess game can go than there are atoms in the entire universe. And to understand this game on a theoretical basis and find the actual method to play well, it took a f'ing super-computer ("Deep Blue"). It took a super-computer to understand this game well enough to actually beat a human. And they worked on that computer for decades (contrary to a patch or champion, where it's a few months at best). And now back to League...League is not as simple as chess, I think I made that pretty clear. It has infinitely more variables. Saying that League is a trillion times more complex than chess is already a gross understatement. But if you want to know what will happen, for example with a new champ, you have to understand the game on a theoretical level, as Deep Blue did with chess. Only then you can reliably predict what will happen. I think I made it quite clear, that a "League Deep Blue" can't exist. The complexity of the game is ridiculously absurd, it's impossible to do that. But despite not having this, Riot somehow manages that barely ever any champion exceeds 55% winratio. How fricking amazing is that? Yes, sometimes a champion comes out a bit strong (or weak), sure, I'm not denying that. But how in the world is this supposed to NOT happen? I think people grossly underestimate how fricking complicated balancing in a game like League is. There is no f'ing way that Riot, or anyone, could achieve perfect balance. What they are already achieving is close to miracle for me, personally, and I have no idea how they are doing it.
Have you ever played Dota 2? That game has a lot of content and a lot of fansupport. Hell, they show the skin you want to buy in 3D and in game, instead of just a splash art and having to go to youtube and watch a skin spotlight. Their gameplay is much more complex and at the end, does still feel more balanced than LoL.
: As Furry said, Xin is pretty high on that list. I also remember pre-release Rengar. Rengar was playable on Gamescom on live servers back then and had incredible ratios. I had no idea what I was doing and was just killing everything. And I'm certainly not a good player...and most definitely not with Rengar^^ Also Feral Flare Warwick. I mean, that's technically not a champion but a build, but Feral Flare was super strong back then and everyone was playing Feral Flare Yi...and nobody seemed to realize that Feral Flare Warwick was so much stronger back then. Almost the same incredibly damage as Yi, but contrary to Yi, WW could not just be deleted with one little stun. I abused this like hell, back then. Ahhh....good old times. Memories like this are the reason why I find complaints about Riots balance team nowadays incredibly amusing. Sweet summer children.
To be fair, back in the day of Feral Flare, Riot wasn‘t a multi BILLION Dollar Company. So busted things back in the day were excusable. But you would expect, after 10 years and having ALL the Money, they would know how to properly manage to balance the only game that brings them Money. But they don‘t and them being blamed these days, they deserve it.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: lol full of idiots and noobs
I mean, LoL is like filled with 40% Idiots, 40% small toxic children and the normals are the other 20%. But the way you wrote your complaint makes you sound like a Toxic Child.
Hansiman (EUNE)
: > Braum's E also only mitigates the First instance of damage and then reduces damage taken by the rest. > So a Lucian ult only the first bullet is mitigated entirely. Braum is also designed to be a beafy tank support that can soak up tons of damage. Yasuo isn't.
But Braum‘s entire kit and gimmick is based around his unbreakable shield. So to see that Yasuo, a swordsman who is an assassin and mastered the wind, has a better shield than Braum, a guy with an unbreakable Shield is just stupid. Also, Yasuo‘s wind wall is stronger than Braum‘s unbreakable ice covered shield. What kind of logic is that?

Fyrijou

Level 119 (EUW)
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