: Blue Essence and XP Feedback (Discussion)
If I had to vote, I'd say it was an improvement mostly, altough the orange essence shift is kinda nasty. > [{quoted}](name=GFG Nazgul,realm=EUW,application-id=2BfrHbKG,discussion-id=glGwqigR,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-15T21:37:18.725+0000) > > **_1 - Blue Essence_** > > a) **You said you wanted to remove the "grind for IP"; instead, you made it worse.** Well, when they meant removing grinding, they meant that people shouldn't need to play so many games to get their IP. That was mostly aimed at beginners which needed IP for champions, runes, rune pages...etc, something logical is you ask me, due to veteran players not needing IP as much therefore not minding the IP bring. In this sense they made a good improvement, both because there's no longer any need to buy the last aforementioned, and because now you win more BE than you did before with IP, unless you play an ABSURD amount of games (if you don't want to do the maths yourself, here you have a post where everything is explained https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/hAaYMrEs-leveling-and-rewards-early-impressions-and-adjustments ) > **b) The "random" factor of shard drops is unfair.** Well, that's may be true in a level-to-level basis, just like people saying they only get feeders on their team. But when you look at the big picture (leveling 30 levels, playing 100 games) the randomness factor dissappears, so that may have been true the very first days of leveling, but after everyone have leveled their fair amount of levels, there's hardly much difference. > **c) It is amazing for new players.** > Some friends of mine that recently started playing have been flying through champs and essence. This is a great thing, I think. I agree with that ^^ > **d) ...but not so much for veteran players.** > I know this because I am such a player. Almost all of the shards I ever get are for champs I own, so these "big drops" of yours that I keep disenchanting for next to nothing honestly feel worthless to me. IP was rewarding; it felt good to get at the end of every game. XP is nice, but ultimately feels valueless in comparison. Welp, I'm a veteran in the same situation as you, and for answering that I will refer you to the post I linked on the a) question ^^. > **e) Taking a champ to mastery 6 or 7 now _feels_ more costly (and thus less exciting).** Seeing you put emphasis on the ''feel'', I guess you then KNOW they're not more expensive on the long run, due to more crystal shards dropping and therefore saving up on more essence. It's true now the numbers are bigger, but that's just because in the classic system we got WAY less BE (when IP was still around) than now, so the BE costs were ofc lower. But in order to get the BE for upgrading masteries level before you had to buy the 1700 PI stuff which gave you champion shards, and you'd need around 2-3 for each mastery upgrade, so I wouldn't say the classic way of upgrading mastery was that exciting/fantastic > > **_2 - Orange Essence_** > > I understand you felt you were losing by giving players so many shards last season, and perhaps you were, and perhaps it was right to drop the disenchant value. But **did you have to drop the disenchant value by so much? Now, unlocking a legendary skin is worth disenchanting 5 others, **which can take months. This is extremely daunting. And what about someone who has no essence but wants to unlock an ultimate shard? > > **This also prevents people from buying hextech chests/keys.** I have bought in the past. Now I don't want to, because the value has dropped greatly. > > **An alternative solution that might be better is to remove champion shards from Hextech Chests (we get enough of those shards now from capsules and upcoming honor checkpoints), and have them contain only Orange Essence content.** > Really, one of the worst feelings ever is waiting forever to unlock a chest only to get a champ shard for someone you already own. > > **_3 - XP and leveling up_** > > I **like the idea of infinite levels. But only as a bragging right. I don't see why this should be the source of Blue Essence. Sure, reward players with emotes at milestones, but why not simply give us blue essence along with XP at the end of each game?** That would also instill a sense of "double incentive"; that is, even though it might be no more rewarding in terms of BE than the current system, it will FEEL better (at least in my opinion, and that of other I've spoken to), and then there will be two things to be immediately rewarded with instead of one. Furthermore, for players that do prefer delayed drops, there will still be the milestone levels to look forward to. > Actually as long I know from a psychological point of view adding a new reward on a goal may backfire and actually DISCOURAGE people from the said goal. > **_4 - Why are these issues important?_** > > Because a brief search around the web shows that **many people are unhappy with these things. Indeed, if you look solely at feedback, it seems most of it is negative.** > League is one of the greatest games, and it still has potential to grow even more, but **decisions that upset the playerbase are a negative impact on growth and potential.** For example, since the changes, a friend has told me several times how it feels like there's less to play for now. He's even cut down playing a lot. This makes me wonder, how many people might actually stop because of such things? Welp, there I think neither you or I have nothing to say. In the first place, we haven't the means to actually see the real reaction of people against this. Even if you check up every forum and every reddit post, that won't be even 1% of the actual playerbase, and specially not an accurate representation. The only ones who have this info are they. And moreover Riot is a big company, their wadges depend on this game, so I assure you they're WAY more invested than all of us in it, therefore if they actually see such a big backslach as you claim they'll step back (look Dynamic Queue or Kog'maw rework) > Also, **you claim that you don't want to implement change only for the sake of change; but in these instances, it's hard to see the logic.** I mean, WHY did BE have to be dropped only per level and not per game? > I'd say is mostly with the purpose of ''feeling good''. From a stadistical standpoint, if you receive the same thing everytime you do an action you'll start to just give it as a fact and it will be less exciting. If instead you give variable rewards on a variable basis, there's the excitement of ''what will I get this time?''.Remember tho, we're talking about general feeling rather than individual one, ofc there'll be always people who will like the classic system more, nevertheless, there's a reason why more and more companies are taking this approach: it has been shown that it works better. >WHY is orange essence made less valuable because players are recieving more shards (including blue essence ones, which aren't relevant)? Why can't BE be earned in customs like IP could? I think this is due to economic reasons. Remember Riot lost a decent amount of income when they made runes free and not as necessary to buy, so I think the orange essence change is aimed at patching that and fixing part of the problem. > **In conclusion: Riot, I feel you should focus on all the feedback players are giving as much as you do on the graphs and statistics you've been defending these changes with.** Giving them XP and BE is one thing, but keeping them feeling good is another. Be careful not to ignore them too much, else this awesome game will start to suffer from it. I think they really listen to us, even if they are not always answering back. It's hard for me to imagine a company getting this big and successful by ignoring the playerbase. They've improved notably on this aspect over the last years, but some extra shot outs would be great as well. If they just listened to us, well... I doubt the game would be as it is today. I remember a LOT of changes which makes this game great nowadays were heavily criticized on forums when they announced/recently introduced them (Supp items rework s4, plants, different types of smites, elemental dragons...etc) and some people still hate them nowadays, but most of us have just adapted and with time it showed to worth it. Sometimes they mess up (DynamicQ, some class reworks, classic herald...), I'd say is usually worth the shot still. > Please, let me know what you all think of this. And if any Rioters come across this and disagree with my silly points, then please clarify for us. > > Thanks for the amazing game and hard work. :) Thank you for sharing your opinion, hope you can see my point as well ^^. Have a nice day!
Helsmurf (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Granclan,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=fNevEhi9,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-08-17T12:43:41.255+0000) > > Personally, I think if TF ever gets an update, it would be in a lot of years. His kit is still quite nice, even if it could use some improvements. I like the concept of the 'w' being moved into the passive, but other than that... > > 1. Actually, nowadays you can know which card are you starting with. It always follows the same patron of Blue --> Red --> Gold, but just while it's active. So, if you use the red card, next time you cast 'w' it'll stay a short while in the red card (depenging on how fast you selected it) and continue the cycle. You can see a lot of pro players abusing this and using 2 gold cards in a row. > > 2. The w doesn't makes sense. It doesn't fit TF thematically, and it would make him harder to balance because it would drastically reduce his main weakness: low mobility. It's like giving Annie a movement speed boost. > > 3. I prefer the 'e' as it's now, making laning more dynamic due to having high moments you can't really ''choose''. The one you suggest would be completely controlled by the player, reducing the amount of counterplay and therefore it's power. > > 4. As of nowadays, TF's ult is considered to be amongst the strongest (if not THE strongest) due to the insane gank potential. The only thing that makes it balanceable is TF's low mobilty, sub-par burst compared to other mages and the fact that it exposes him. If you remove all of those weaknesses, it would be way too strong. > > That's my humble opinion, hope you can see my point. Have a nice day! While you select some points good, I really see something that is not true. TF's only weakness is not the lack of mobility. And it is not. TF is a champ without possibility to zone, with less burst than annie in low levels, and does not have infinite time to land his stun, which in addition depends on his aa, not in a skill. Annie can set a stun in area, and has much more burst less dependant of the items, and in somewhat much more a solid way than TF. His stun is somewhat easier to land and safer, cause it is instant, and does not depend on a card flipping around the characters head. That's the first part. The second part is that because of his decent damage output, annie can build herself a somewhat "tanky" item, like roa, without loosing nothing at all in the mid game, while TF, high sheen dependant, can't go for a RoA without feeling punished in his lane phase. The last thing is that annie has two excelent tools to clean minion waves, either one by one with the q, or his w to put out huge waves. TF, on the other side, has a very thin 3 way projectile and his red card to clean waves, and maybe his blue card to land on a enemy. However, the blue card is the same ability that the wave cleaner, so he can't do it inmediately after the other, and a lot of times he is in difficulties to mantain a decent creep score against a champ that can press him. And as we said before, he is really item dependant so... And yes, I know, he has a passive that makes up for all this, but still though, he is not a champ that is friendly to new players, or even to players coming from other mages. If I was about to put the advantages and disadvantages of TF, it would be the next ones. · Advantages: + A huge burst late game. + Point n click stun. + Wave clear. + Maná recovery. + Good harash through his red card, q and 3 hit passive. + Passive gives mooooooneeeeey %%%%%! + Great ganking potential because of his ultimate. · Disadvantages - Although he can harass you with q and stacked deck, he lacks a clear zoning tool. Red card can zone melee champs, but is way useless vs ranged mages. - Item dependant. - Squishy as %%%%. - Lack of mobility. - His harass can be easily avoided. - Lacks of means to control the lane phase compared to other more aggressive mages. Summing all the previous things up, the result is that you have a crossover between a mage, a ranged carry and an assasin. And that needs a tune, because he is no good in none of those 3 roles. If he was about to be a mage, he would need a zoning tool. If he was carry or assasin, he would need mobility, which would help a lot to land more stuns. Anyway you want to look at it, he needs somewhat a rework, and I think that adding him a tumble/dash, would help a lot to point him in the sweet spot. It would give him a valuable tool to land his stun and act aggresive, as an assasin should do.
> [{quoted}](name=Helsmurf,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=fNevEhi9,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2017-08-17T23:53:18.102+0000) > >TF's only weakness is not the lack of mobility. And it is not. First, I said it was his MAIN weakness, not the only one ^^. He's still squishy as hell and highly telegraphed, but the mobility is still the biggest thing keeping TF balanceable > TF is a champ without possibility to zone, with less burst than annie in low levels, and does not have infinite time to land his stun, which in addition depends on his aa, not in a skill. Annie can set a stun in area, and has much more burst less dependant of the items, and in somewhat much more a solid way than TF. His stun is somewhat easier to land and safer, cause it is instant, and does not depend on a card flipping around the characters head. I'd like to remind you that Annie's stun is displayed as well in a really big secondary bar, so It's just as visible as the gold card popping out of TF's head, and moreover she surrounds herself of a white aura. Furthermore, while it's true that Annie can ''hold'' the stun for as much as she likes, that is in exchange of not being able to use spells to push like you mentioned. And the fact that the card depends on an aa rather than a skill is WAY better, because it means it's impossible to juke it with dashes or flashes. In exchange, Annie stun is AoE, which is a huge thing, but I think there are drawbacks for that. >That's the first part. The second part is that because of his decent damage output, annie can build herself a somewhat "tanky" item, like roa, without loosing nothing at all in the mid game, while TF, high sheen dependant, can't go for a RoA without feeling punished in his lane phase. Actually, RoA is a really well-liked item on TF after sheen (or sometimes even rushed). The item allows him to push extra hard with the extra mana, making it easier to roam, and the hp makes him able to resist all-ins from enemies who want to slaughter him before pushing. >The last thing is that annie has two excelent tools to clean minion waves, either one by one with the q, or his w to put out huge waves. TF, on the other side, has a very thin 3 way projectile and his red card to clean waves, and maybe his blue card to land on a enemy. However, the blue card is the same ability that the wave cleaner, so he can't do it inmediately after the other, and a lot of times he is in difficulties to mantain a decent creep score against a champ that can press him. Once you get a mana item, you'll push harder than Annie. While it's true that she can spam q to push, it means she has to kills minions 1 by 1. Her 'w' does really poor damage unless maxed, so Annie is actually not that great of a pusher unless she zones you hard. TF can q + red card to destroy the caster minions while they're coming in a straight lane from base (and with some ap, even deleting the melee ones with red card + q). > > If I was about to put the advantages and disadvantages of TF, it would be the next ones. > > · Advantages: > + A huge burst late game. > + Point n click stun. > + Wave clear. > + Maná recovery. > + Good harash through his red card, q and 3 hit passive. > + Passive gives mooooooneeeeey %%%%%! > + Great ganking potential because of his ultimate. > > · Disadvantages > - Although he can harass you with q and stacked deck, he lacks a clear zoning tool. Red card can zone melee champs, but is way useless vs ranged mages. > - Item dependant. > - Squishy as %%%%. > - Lack of mobility. > - His harass can be easily avoided. > - Lacks of means to control the lane phase compared to other more aggressive mages. > I'm ok with the advantages, but I've to disagree with the disavantages. TF HAS ways to control a lane, the thing is that they're way more subtle than Syndra's balls, Heimer's turrets and so on. The best way to see that is seeing high elo TF's playing, specially DOPA. I'm not saying TF is a lane bully, but when well played he can hold his ground against most enemy mid laners. > Summing all the previous things up, the result is that you have a crossover between a mage, a ranged carry and an assasin. And that needs a tune, because he is no good in none of those 3 roles. If he was about to be a mage, he would need a zoning tool. If he was carry or assasin, he would need mobility, which would help a lot to land more stuns. Anyway you want to look at it, he needs somewhat a rework, and I think that adding him a tumble/dash, would help a lot to point him in the sweet spot. It would give him a valuable tool to land his stun and act aggresive, as an assasin should do. Well, depends on what you understand as mages, ranged carries and assasins. There are a lot of mage types (control-focused mages, burst mages, combat mages...). And assasins aren't just people who can burst carries easily (hello Syndra), but the ones who can safely select a target, burst them, and get out of the fight before dieing with mobility. And ranged carries as we understand them today aren't just guys who can attack you from a far, but that can maintain a steady amount of dps through aa's. So, for me TF's is more a barrage of burst mage and assasin. I wouldn't include the ranged carry there, he lacks the dps for that. He has the means to select specific targets with his ult and 'w', and a decent burst combo to get them out, but he hasn't a way out once he gets in. There are better guys at assasinating than him, and burst mages who can destroy people easier, altough have more trouble reaching them. In exchange he has unparallable map pressure. In conclusion, altough there could be some improvements made to his kit, I still think there are way more champions than needs that work before him (like Kayle, Teemo, Morde, Xin zhao, Volibear... etc) Thank you for expressing your opinion tho ^^. Have a nice day!
Deidaras (EUNE)
: Twisted Fate Rework
Personally, I think if TF ever gets an update, it would be in a lot of years. His kit is still quite nice, even if it could use some improvements. I like the concept of the 'w' being moved into the passive, but other than that... 1. Actually, nowadays you can know which card are you starting with. It always follows the same patron of Blue --> Red --> Gold, but just while it's active. So, if you use the red card, next time you cast 'w' it'll stay a short while in the red card (depenging on how fast you selected it) and continue the cycle. You can see a lot of pro players abusing this and using 2 gold cards in a row. 2. The w doesn't makes sense. It doesn't fit TF thematically, and it would make him harder to balance because it would drastically reduce his main weakness: low mobility. It's like giving Annie a movement speed boost. 3. I prefer the 'e' as it's now, making laning more dynamic due to having high moments you can't really ''choose''. The one you suggest would be completely controlled by the player, reducing the amount of counterplay and therefore it's power. 4. As of nowadays, TF's ult is considered to be amongst the strongest (if not THE strongest) due to the insane gank potential. The only thing that makes it balanceable is TF's low mobilty, sub-par burst compared to other mages and the fact that it exposes him. If you remove all of those weaknesses, it would be way too strong. That's my humble opinion, hope you can see my point. Have a nice day!
Solicitude (EUNE)
: Not really. If you see on its items description it says that this passive is unique, which means you only benefit from the highest value once, they dont stack additively.
A bit too late, sorry. That's not true at all. You won't benefit from the +%healing if you've the same item twice, but if the bonus comes from different items you'll stack them. So if you had 6 Mikael's Crucible the benefit would be just 20%, not 120%, but if you buy Redemption + Ardent + Mikael's you'll have a total of 40% extra healing. You can check it out in custom games. Build a Mikael's and then build Redemption: you'll heal more even if neither of those items give ap.
: 1. Are you really that dense? Like...How much can you change a thing before it no longer resembles the thing it was? Just google it and you'll see it's not a real ship but a paradox, a thought experiment. Now I have explained why Alistar is complete shit, because I enjoyed playing him toplane, support and jungle, and rito decided that they did not like that, thus they forced him into the support box only, and then they proceed to %%%% him over once more by making him a garbage champ which entire kit is countered by like 1 skill from every other support champ. 2. Yeah because op.gging someone who is vying for rito goodboy points is just so shady. What I am trying to tell you, is that you are fake. And I knew you where fake from the moment you said you never supported a potato ADC and that they always try to win just as much as you. That was the moment I knew you where about as genuine as Lolo Ferrari and had zero substance. Self conceit, or people who virtue signal like that, are the most dishonest people of all. Because they will never tell you how it is or how they see things. They will try to "spare" the feelings of others and insult their intelligence and autonomy by deciding what they can hear or not. It's like all those male feminists who rant and rave about patriarchy, and then get busted for sexually harassing females. "But whatever, yeah, you know, I'm not a jerk and I like to play with friends even if they're from a lower elo than me. I'm such a monster, eh?" Wallow in your delusions of virtue but I'll give you a very brief summary of what awaits you. This incessant need to be accepted and seen as a good person, not having any sharp edges that might offend people, is going to drive you insane. Your life will be infinitely better should you allow for the world to see your less than noble sides, and love you for them. 3. I've no idea what the hell changes happened because I quit playing this money/time sink. It's boring, repetitive and it's obvious we've become nothing more than whales for rito to milk for cash. It was so obvious the shift happened 2 years ago with that %%%%%%ed summer promotion where we had to gather like 50.000.000 points by gifting and we'd all get the Luau Mundo skin. Truth be told I could not be bothered to give a singular %%%% about a company that no longer gives but only bleeds it's players. Yoric is trash. King of split pushing? Tryndamere is way more reliable for that. His core identity was being a counter for Satan. Aatrox is trash and if you think rito cares about balance, why are the top 5 challenger players all Riven mains?
Hell bro... well, you know, I don't like wasting time. It's quite clear you're losing an argument when you start raging at me because you know you're wrong, and have no strong arguments in your side. Just do this community a favor and leave this game, go get some help. You need it. Good luck!
Solicitude (EUNE)
: >enchanter's builds includes up to +50% shielding This is wrong. The heal and shield amplification on items is a unique passive, meaning you just benefit from the stronger effect. This would make it +30% with mikael's crucible and windspeaker's blessing and +20% with ardent censer or redemption and windspeaker's blessing. In that sense its still stronger on tanky supports, since they will also have at least a 10% increase in healing/shielding from a redemption. Putting it into numbers, an enchanter with a mikael's and windspeaker will have approximately 2k hp and +30% shielding power, while a tank will have at least a redemption with a +10% and in most cases a mikael's as well with +20% and approximately 3k hp (when both of them are full build). An enchanter will get 434+(0.36*2000)+(0.36*0.3*2000)=434+720+216=1370 shield. A tank with a redemtion will have 434+(0.36*3.000)+(0.36*0.1*3000)=434+1080+108=1622. A tank with a mikael's and +20% will have 434+(0.36*3000)+(0.36*0.2*3000)=434+1080+216=1730. As you can see locket is better on a tank. I mean even a tank with 3k hp and no amplifications will have a shield of 434+1080=1514 which is still higher than the average enchanter.
Its not actually wrong. The unique passive has no name, which means that if you get the same item twice, it won't stack, but if there are different items you'll get all the effects. So an Ardent Censer + Mikael + Redemption would give you up to 40%, while 2 Mikael's wouldn't give you 40%, but 20%. And I'm not saying it's always better on enchanters, but rather that the changes didn't make the difference big enough.
: Thresh the better Blitzcrank ?
Basically Blitzcrank is the PICK tank, while Thresh is more of a pocket pick. It depends on the comps themselves. Blitzcrank will prove really useful for a team which moves around making picks and punishing mistakes: Pick comps. Thresh is way more versatile, but he isn't AS good as Blitzcrank at that job, so he's more of an hybrid between Pick/engager and disengager. Basically Thresh can do a lot of jobs at an acceptable level, but he isn't the best at anything. Blitzcrank has a better hook, Braum has better peel and disengage, Tahm has a better way of preventing your allies mistakes... etc. In conclusion: they fulfill different roles, so unless there's a big disparity in balance, there isn't a ''better'' one.
ShadWooo (EUNE)
: I think that the intend of the change was stupid in first place. Locket is simply a must item for any support if enemies have: - fed AP midlaner - lot of AP aoes like brand, zyra, viktor.... Which tends to happen almost in every game, buffing heals is useless when syndra burst my adc with just ult 100-0 (and i cast heal mid-dmg and she still dies) So it just weaker for enchanters but still a must which is awkward. Imo the problem here was creating Redemption, till then we had no such issues as every support doing same build. That item is stupid and overpowered. It is maybe not so visible because supports don't do that much in games but compared to other items is much better. So for me, remove Redemption, bring old locket and we have a balance.
I like Solari being the anti-burst item and Redemption being the TF one, giving a little more depth into the items, but so far the problem was their crazy sinergy. In theory the changes were focused towards that: make Red + Solari less THE core items for ANYONE, and rather specialize them a little bit more, but I think they missed the shot with this direction.
Rioter Comments
ShadWooo (EUNE)
: This is why I can't win as support.
Well, if you pick something as unconventional as Teemo, which is more a melee's bully or hard scaling threat, and give him no items... you may be able to hold your own in the laning phase and even get fed, but after that you won't make as much use of those skills as other supports do. Yeah, you've the point-and-click blind which takes out an adc or some assasins from a fight, but anyways you shouldn't be dealing with adc's (which are the most affected), so it isn't as effective. The mushrooms can be of help too for covering areas and helping you ward, but having already a sighstone I don't think it is as useful as having it on top lane, where you have to survive with just the trinket. If you had a traditional support (those who ''suck'' so much) in the moment you said Gragas had to engage, you could do it yourself. And traditional supports can help to side-lane or siege with items like Banner of Command or Zz'rot ^^. That's the tradeoff, traditional supports may not win the lane as hard as other dudes, but they bring a lot of utility later on which can come in handy on lots of scenarios. About the things you learned: 1. Well, yeah, it may be true that if you went for a full dmg build instead of an utility one you could kill more people by yourself (tho a Vayne in late just by aa'ing will do as much, if not more, than you imho), but you're forgetting an important fact: Price. As the supp you won't be farming normally (or you shouldn't), which means you'll have low income and it'll take you a LOOOOOONG time to build the expensive damage items, which is a really big deal when you're 4 vs 5, because you've to finish the game SOON, and that wouldn't help. 2. Dodging is a good strategy, but looking at stadistics she has a 49'18% WR, which is quite fine. Instead it's usually better dodge when your comps has no sense (like Trynda [splitpush] + Elise [picks] + Leona [TF/picks] + Ziggs [Poke/siege, for example), you're full ad/ap, or you're into a role you CAN'T play as. Gl in your next games ^^.
: 1. The ship of Theseus should be more than enough explanation as to why he is garbage. They nerfed him over and over again to force us to play him as support and only that. This last rework was too much so I use my right to voice my dissatisfaction with the bullshit rito is pulling as well as using my wallet, or lack of usage, to strengthen my point. But then they make him a completely worthless support as well because the rito design team only play bullshit heal and shield supports and they didn't like being engaged upon. 2. Is your mom proof reading all your comments or something? Because you are completely full of shit if you claim that is the norm and i've no issue with calling a shovel a shovel. But happily op.gg is a thing and I can see pleeeenty of examples in your own game history where you are playing with a potato adc. 3. BULL. SHIT. Lulu has been a cancerous champ for so long. Midlane, toplane but they finally managed to push her into bot but there she is reigning supreme and is pretty much permabanned. But still nothing on the PBE about some reasonable changes or nerfs. And will you make up your mind? First Ali was just a stun bot and now he's an ardent censer bot. And some reliable heal is only fair when a midget with a top hat can completely nullify your damage, stun you and give her adc a boost to damage. Janna could easily stop you with her tornado, shield her ADC and make you suffer for picking Alistar. Alistar has a small manapool and large costs to his skills. That was the primary thing that kept you from completely taking over botlane. Yoric isn't a niche pick. Yoric is garbage and has been so ever since his rework. But rito did the required rework so they aren't even tossing him a second glance now. The AI on his ult is utter trash and was clearly handled by someone who hates their job. But again, he is reworked so what do they care? Ryze still needs to be made playable because he is the posterboy! The same with Aatrox. Just give him the required attention and be done with him. As long as he doesn't cause big waves it's ait. But Riven can completely steamroll a game with her knockup, stun, shields and AA damage as well as her singletarget damage. But there is no need to balance her or give her a rework. She has over 10% playrate and comfortably over 50% winrate. But close your eyes and cover your ears and there ain't no problem. Because GOD forbid there is even a smidge of individual skill left in this game! LoL was great because it was similart to DoTA2 but not to that extreme where one champ can go completely ape and literally 1v5. LoL has a higher skill ceiling because the engine it runs on allows for it. Why do you think everyone still remembers Ryu vs Faker Zed fight? Because that was INDIVIDUAL skill. All the great moments in league are individuals rising above on the merits of their own abilities. Xpeke became a verb because of this. Toplane has been nothing but tank against tank and even the casters find it idiotic and boring. But herald can be solod by a potato with a toothpick.
1. In the ship of Thessues they completely swapped the old pieces by the new ones. Here they just took power from the least innovative, boring and toxic skill, and put it into a more fresh one, giving him clear high points within the skill. Before the nerfs it was just: Spam e and engage every once in a while. After the nerfs it was: Use 'E' just if you REALLY need to, don't spam it. After the mini-rework it was: ''If you manage to stick with the enemies for some times, you're rewarded with a big empowered aa'' 2. Wow, have you been looking at my games and seeing how my adc's positionate?, I don't know whether you're trying really hard to make a point out of nowhere or that I should start worrying about having a fan. But whatever, yeah, you know, I'm not a jerk and I like to play with friends even if they're from a lower elo than me. I'm such a monster, eh? But even then, every once in a while me or my elo's adc can mess up. We're still humans and if we didn't make any mistakes we'd be in challenger. But for the most part, when you do a good engage, they will follow. 3. Excuse... me?, the 7.11 patch (or maybe 7.11) gave her a hefty nerf to her base shields and base hp. They become strong when it's their time to shine due to meta changes or the role itself evolving. It's IMPOSSIBLE to achieve perfect balancing, unless you create the game with the intent of perfectly balancing it, which means having similar skills, with similar effects, and overall make it pretty boring 99% of the time. Yorick is garbage?, tell me what is exactly garbage about him?, because the ult thing (even when it's weird at times) has clear rules you've to manipulate: she focuses the target you hit, and if you sent them towards a turret she'll keep pushing like crazy, so it depends on your map awareness and skill to make the most use of her with those things in mind. He has counter play (Clear combat patterns in the ghoul and 'e' redirect mechanics), he has his own specialty (inside the juggernaut category, he's the king of Split Pushing) and he's a really rich character from a lore and thematic stand point. What exactly do you see wrong with him? Ryze is a really complicated matter. It'll probably need more work to be in the spot, still he's the best version of Ryze there's ever been. They already said the changes to Aatrox weren't the complete deal, but rather a little help to make him more bearable until they can properly fix him. Riven could use some work as well, but she's still not in the worst place, there are some windows of opportunity, ways to reduce her power, she's risky and requires a lot of skill to work properly. League gives a lot of ways to express your mechanical skill, but the most important aspect is with a LOT of difference is the strategic part. Rotations, map awareness, predicting enemies' movements... etc. Still it's an important thing as you mention, and that's why new reworks look for ways to make your champions be able to fail or succeed depending on your skill. Look at Taric, Warwick, Sion, the new champions... they've clear windows of opportunity and skills they can miss which allow them to be stronger if they do it right. Or are you telling me old Yorick was harder to play before?, or Taric?, or Galio?, even Alistar needs to properly move after engaging in order to get more power than before, where you just engaged, pressed 'r' and started dancing.
: 30 games and I am done - thanks to feeders
> > I want to play a game where best player makes the diference, not the worst one.... > The best one actually makes a difference. The thing is that the best one is the one who got fed. Just like you don't usually lose your lane, there's someone else who doesn't either, and he can be in the enemy team and rape your other lanes, just like you would, don't ya think? It's just that you're looking at it from the wrong angle. If you were better than that player and fed yourself even more, then you would carry.
: The new galio rework
You're looking at the rework from a wrong angle, Galio isn't suppossed to be a Vanguard (tank who starts fights like Malph), but rather a** Warden: focused on protecting his allies and stopping enemies who would try to harm them. ** Let's talk about his abilities: **W:** The reason why it doesn't scale with armor is because **Galio is suppossed to be an anti-mages**, both from a thematic/lore standpoint and a gameplay one. Armor is still needed against ad threats, but if Galio can choose, he should prefer Magic resistance and it'll make him a better pick against AP-heavy comps. Moreover penetration doesn't affects the damage reduction of the active. Armor and MR penetration affects your armor and magic, not those kind of damage reductions. **E:** Making his 'e' an AoE ability would be overkill: he already has an AoE taunt with his 'w', and an AoE knock-up with his ultimate, you can't just give another one so reliable. And it's alright to allow enemies to block it by standing in your way, it gives different ways to outplay and Riot can put more power into the kit. If he could use it to escape easily or go through walls they would have to take power from somewhere else, making him less of a tank and more of an assasin, which wouldn't make much sense. **Ult:** The reason it has such a big delay is because it's suppossed to be a zone-kind of spell, **focused on protecting your carry**, either by forcing your opponents to walk away from him or suffering a really big knock-up. If Riot allowed us to use it anywhere, it'd make the skill WAY. TOO. GODDAMN NUTS. So they'd have to nerf it somewhere else: decreasing the knock-up, the range or the radius, increasing the time needed to arrive...etc. And it would go against his thematic as a protector. Galio's skills are overall quite good. They feel impactful, have clear moments of success/failure, ways to play around them and fit him thematically. He's suppossed to be like this: **a bulky warrior which main focus isn't to kill bad guys, but rather protect his citizens as the symbol he's suppossed to be. A True Protector**. That's why this set of skills make sense. Making the kind of changes you suggested wouldn't make him ''bad'', but it doesn't fit the character. It would be better on a Vanguard like Mao or Malphite, not on Galio. Try giving other champions a shot if Galio isn't your style ^^
: 1. You are saying. Play him until you like him and stop QQing. Trying to phrase it nicer isn't going to change the meaning of what you are trying to convey now is it? 2. If you think my scenario is absurd then you are definitely not playing League. Are you telling me that you have been playing this game for, and I quote, a "looooong" time without EVER having a potato as an ADC? I may be rude but you are nothing short of horribly disingenuous if you propose such a claim. 3. rito is known for changing champs and then keeping an eye on them aren't they? The only champ they are investing absurd resources into constantly changing and reworking is Ryze. What disturbs me is that they probably have another rework in the pipes. And once more I question how long you played this game because if you think that running MP5 was all that was needed to be said, then you never played against Soraka, Janna, christ even Lulu. rito isn't even remotely concerned with those champs, but Alistar had a good patch for a couple of months as a support after they kicked him out of toplane and jungle, and they bring out the nerf bat, wack him into oblivion and continue allowing the supports that actually spam heals and shields to reign. Even give them items that make them even more overpowered. Yoric and Aatrox are just put in a barely playable state and left to stew in their own little corner of the league bracket. Yoric has a minor surge in popularity right now but that is gonna be about as long lasting as that week Urgot was popular in the LCS. And why was the risk of falling behind with Aatrox such a big problem but falling behind with Riven was not? Riven is designed to fight several champs at once, but because Aatrox could become obnoxious if he got ahead thus change? rito's design philosophy seems nothing more than chucking shit at a board and see what sticks. Nowhere is that more clear than the new rift herald, they just NEED stuff to do stuff, it doesn't have to be good or healthy, as long as stuff is happening all the time like some ritalin stealing sibling prepping for an exam.
1. Man... the champ is 99% the same. They just swapped his passive and his 'e', moved some power around and made him healthier by amplifying his strenghts (extra damage and cc) while making sure he can't nullify his weaknesses (poke). You're not giving any constructive criticism about what exactly is so different about Alistar. What core identity did they take away?, give me ANY argument which validates your point of ''this isn't the same champion anymore''. 2. Nope. It's really simple: your carry wants to win the game just as badly as you do, otherwise he wouldn't be playing. So, if you actually make a good engage he'll follow up because he WANTS those kills to win, maybe even more than you do. The system will match you with and against people who are of a similar level than you most of the time, so if your carry isn't following you it's because you aren't doing such great engages. 3. A few years already. All those champs receive tweaks when they need to be tweaked. And the problem with Alistar wasn't just he being strong, rather that he had strengths he shouldn't. His heal is just a little help to endure (not nullify) poke ,but pre-rework it was nerfed to the ground because it was being maxed, and using mana glyphs or seals you could basically SPAM that heal and stay healthy at all times, while retaining the reliable and powerful engage. Alistar should be picked because of his reliable engage and tankyness, not being an ardent censer bot. That's terribly boring. Yorick is a niche pick. And that's fine. Champions haven't to be popular, but healthy, fun and coherent, and he does rather well in all those points. There are clear win states (preparing your graves and landing 'e', trapping immobile opponents so that your ghouls can tear them apart while you stay safe) and fail states (you miss 'e', send your ult to die without achieving anything or using your ghouls for the wrong purpose) The problem with Aatrox is that he hadn't really clear windows on ''when to go in''. His passive was almost always full if you knew how to play him, and because that and his 'w' were the most important parts of his kit, tracking cd's of Q and E wasn't important. That was the problem. There weren't many ways to play around him, so if he got ahead you were done for because he had a passive G.A, lots of damage and self-sustain, and if he wasn't fed, he couldn't heal enough because building tank was an horrible idea due to abilites costing % of your max hp and self-sustain depended of your AD, so it was a complete feast or famine situation. Riven has more windows of opportunities, she depends on her skills, so if you attack her when they're on cd she's defenseless, for example. With the new Aatrox changes there's a really clear moment when Aatrox ramps up and becomes an unstopabble killing machine, and when you can just ignore him due to his passive just refilling in combat. There's a NEED of stuff happening, ofc, otherwise the game would become stagnant, but they aren't just doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff. Herald was an attempt to make top lane more dynamic and less of an island (this is suppossed to be a TEAM-game), and this mid-season rework is a different approach trying to make it clearer.
Rioter Comments
: So basically what you are saying is. Bash your head against the wall until you like it. I love the scientific definition of theory, which is why I always have a problem when people misuse the word. But your theory is is nothing short of "rito fanboying for good boy points" Let's not kid ourselves. What you are describing here is an ideal scenario where you jump in, go malph-stun-bot and your ADC follows in and you win a heavy trade. What in reality will happen is you jumping in, your ADC still trying to bind his keys or scratching his ass, you getting shafted hard in that 1v2 trade, and your ADC flaming you for being an idiot and staring to spam allchat with "dis ali major rtard 9x plz" Now, after having lost that trade, I am in dire need of healing. Potions get quaffed but now I have to play passive and OH JOY. He decides to go in because he is Lucian and he has two guns! One for each! Do I need to continue? You telling me you hold the belief that this was done only to balance a champ that had no balance issues? If so, why are they only marginally nerfing Lulu this patch? She is completely beyond broken but no, we have to remove the MR from Graves True Grit passive! That will balance out his absurd damage! How did it go after Yoric was reworked? How about Aatrox?
1. I think there's not even a reason to answer to that... you're giving no arguments other than 'I don't like what you're saying'. 2. My good sir, I've been playing this game for a looooong time, and if you engage right (that is, when your adc isn't out of lane, oom, with low hp or that kind of stuff) he'll follow you because, hell, he wants to win just as badly as you do, and if you give him a free kill he'll take it!. The scenario you're describing is way too absurd. 3. No balance issues?, there had been a ton of patches before the rework, in that same season, because he was healing way too much and hadn't clear weaknesses against poke. You just had to run some MP5 glyhs and you could spam your 'e'. It was absurd. Nowadays the heal isn't spammable, so they can make it more meaningful and put that spared power in the rest of the kit. Yorick is WAY healthier now. He isn't famous because he's a niche champion. But that's fine. He has counterplay in the form of the ghouls and a clear distinction between other colossus by being THE split pusher. Aatrox was reaaaally strong before the mini-update. It's just that he wasn't famous, but he was obnoxious. His kit by design had a lot of flaws: healing scaling with AD meant that if you fell behind, you wouldn't do damage nor tank, and the % hp costs made it horrible to build tank, so you always had to go for dmg and be useless if you didn't get fed... do I have to continue? Right now, after some balance changes, you've more ways to play around him than before, because the passive has clear moments on when you've to fight him, and when you've to flee or cc. It's not the definitive solution, just a little help until they can give him the attention he deserves. Still better than before tho
: Remove the damage on his R, reduce his damage reduction, and making his Q W combo easier to land. Removing any and all skill requirement. And moving his E to his passive, replacing it with some garbage chain move that shows me only one thing, only sup players that work in rito play passive, heal oriented supports where you don't have to be able to do anything but sit back, restore and toss a shield occasionally.
Um... Alistar is exactly as difficult as before to play: now the bulk of his dmg is in his 'e' (btw, it got translated from his ult), which means that he has to stick with the enemies in order to be successful and in return gets a really satisfying stun+heavy damage aa, instead of just being a Malph-ult stun-bot for 99% of the game, that's already a decent improvement. Moreover, the reason for the heal being moved onto the passive is in order to make him easier to balance. It works on a stack system now, and in order to win stacks you've to cc people, which means that the better you play it, the more you'll contribute to your team. In the laning phase you've some extra breathing room because you win stacks when minions die, but it isn't really spammable, and more of a little heal than an actual heal champ. I think you're overreacting a little bit mate, you should try him out some extra times. I personally find him more enjoyable now^^', have a nice day!
Gojiraw (EUW)
: It spawns at 1:52, not at 1:37 or 1:40 as Wolves/Raptors/Red/Blue, and it gives half bar of XP and 86 gold. You lose first 3 melee with someone that can clear it fast. It's not efficient as gold goes, it might be due to experience. It does a lot of damage to any support/ADC combo and I think that the enemy team have enough time to push the minion wave under your tower by the time you reach in lane. Gromp is already buffed, his first autos deal a lot of damage, as he gains 100% attack speed for first 5 attacks. A test run with Caitlyn. Finished buff at 2:30, returned to lane with half bar XP. On the other hand, when I played Caitlyn on the other side, being already in lane while the enemy is doing Gromp, the melee minions hit the tower at 2:10. By 2:30, there were around 4 ranged left, from the first two waves, and I got XP from one melee. As second wave was already there, the enemy must wait for those my 3 melee to die and they get lvl 2. I lost one and a half wave in the process, so it would be the same if I would stay in lane, and I would have a better position. I can't take actions due to my XP advantage. It might work with some kind of cheese, like doing Gromp while Shaco is doing Blue, then come for gank bottom at lvl 2, but I don't see other scenarios where I might be in advantage. I really don't find Gromp start efficient in any way for bottom lane, due to the timings, but also due to what champions are played right now. You have things like Malzahar, Zyra, Brand with Jhin, Cait, Varus that love to push you under your tower and poke you every time you go for CS. You are pretty much making sure that you are losing the lane by letting them do just that right from the start. And, if XP would be shared, would be even more disadvantageous, as my support would get XP too. So that half XP bar would be a quarter.
Mmm... then you've got a good point, altough I'd like to get the supp in the equation. Which supps helped you with the buff?, because someone like Malzh with his 'w' can easily provide a really fast and healthy leash. That would be the biggest problem. If there's ever 1 supp/adc who can get a fast camp clear with exp sharing it would be really obnoxious, 1/4 exp bar on both of them (like a Jhin + Malzh) can catch the enemy by surprise and allow for some really crazy lvl 2 early spikes which could turn the scales of the lane really easily. That's my only concern with the exp sharing thing. If you're up for it, we can go test it in a custom with bots fast and easy. P.S: One last note, re-reading your post I saw this > If you ask me, I think that leashing should not be a thing anymore, and game should move towards eliminating the possibility of leashing, or the effectiveness of it. I would personally modify the Smite, **so it returns flat amount of HP, so champions that are usually not so healthy in the jungle would benefit more from it than junglers that are having pretty healthy clears anyway**, or a buff on starting items for junglers, so they won't struggle so much if they don't get a leash. Changing the smite that way wouldn't give exactly the opposite result? I mean, right now it scales with missing HP, which means that + struggling = +smite effectiveness, so wouldn't it be better to increase the % missing health part?, so that junglers who don't get low aren't affected at all and the rest receive a slight buff?, that could help the struggling junglers out there more than just increasing a little bit the flat amount. Have a nice day!
Gojiraw (EUW)
: That does not work right now, and not because of the sharing. You can't get level 2 without jungle item from any camp, not sure about raptors. But the camps that are near lane spawn later now. Gromp and Krugs spawn way too late in order to gain something from taking them as ADC and support. You don't get level 2, and you pretty much lose first two waves in the process. It makes no sense to do it anyway. Sharing XP would not change anything, it would only remove the leash. The problem before was that you were getting lvl 2 without jungle item, and camps were spawning much earlier. In Season 5 you were able to give a full leash without losing a single lane minion.
Um... I'm not really sure about that. I mean, yeah, you can't get to lvl 2 with 1 camp, but still it's an exp/gold advantage superior than the 3 minions you would lose while killing gromp (krugs would take too long, which could make an unfair advantage when comparing blue and red side), due to how different gromp and krugs are, it would be really tricky to balance the bot lane starts with exp sharing. Maybe buffing a lot gromp at lvl 1-2?, but then farm junglers would have a hard time doing the long route... it's kind of difficult to bring back imo.
Lightno (EUW)
: but they removed galio's armor scaling, he is all mr again now. granted not in the same way as before, but still
And?, I don't see exactly what is the point of your comment. I never said Galio was meant to be super-good with armor, just with mr ^^'
Gojiraw (EUW)
: How about shared XP for jungle camps? They get a leash, they don't get lvl 2 after the first camp, and small Raptors, Golems and Wolves give only gold, and all XP is stacked in big ones. That way, they can't share XP with leash, then get a small rapor and get lvl 2, they will need to actually make the camp at lvl 1 in order to get XP.
Xp was shared before, but it was removed because laners started at camps for an earlier lvl 2 and gold/exp advantage and competitive weird metas which didn't convince Riot at all.
: Thank you rito for the uncalledfor Alistar nerfs.
I think this is a bit late, Alistar got improved a few patches back man ^^', but what is your problem with actual Alistar?, I'm curious.
: He wasn't able to do a single successful knockup... that has nothing to do with the enemy jungler... he just COULDN'T play his champ... there is something you can do about this... play NORMAL... why RANKED??? Play 3000 games in normal with Rek Sai and feed in all of them... I don't care if you feed in normal... but in ranked, play your best... play something you CAN play... And it's not like I made him play bad because I flamed him... HE FLAMED ME... for my god damned CS!!!... my point is solid...
And we go back to the same point: he just played worse. That's it. Deal with it and stop complaining. Nobody plays well until Diamond, and you are asking people in bronze to play well? No matter what champion he played, he'd feed with any of them if he really was worse than the enemy jungle.
: You seems to be right, alas. You see, I didn't quite think this through :-D It was just a sudden idea.
ei, those ideas sometimes are nice! ; p, and at the very least is interesting to theorycraft ^^
Biuvoc (EUW)
: i want to know if system doesnt work if is poor luck to climb cuz i dont see skils to climb.
It could be poor luck if you've played just 10 games, maybe 20. But once you play 100 games you'll see there's no luck in the system. It's simple, pure maths: because each team has a 50% of win rate (you're not that important to Riot for them to put you always with n00bs and flamers, there are of those in both teams), if you perform better reliabily then your team will always have the edge, but you won't notice that until you've played a lot of games, because even if you're REALLY good, the most you can get is a 70% win rate. Normally people who climb do it with a 55% win rate aprox, which in a game-by-game basis isn't so notorious. If you checked the 100 last games you played, you'd see that if you lost 10% of your games because you got an afk, you won a 10% of your games because the enemy team had an afk. So, good luck with the climb my good friend!, if you keep practising and improving your own gameplay by looking at high elo streamers, reading guides and similar, you'll do it!
IkOerman (EUW)
: My problem with the tank meta
Well, first off: up until now the problem weren't Juggernauts but TANKS like Nautilus or Mao. Those guys have mobility, insane cc, really good base damages and take TOO.LONG. To die, that is why they're getting an update. But Juggernauts? Let's look at those 'points' you told, starting with the more absurd: > [{quoted}](name=IkOerman,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=AEAWydEI,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-15T23:43:50.315+0000) > > Above quote is directly copied from the page announcing juggernauts. In my opinion, seeing the current tank META a couple of thing went very, very wrong here. I understand that not all tanks are juggernauts but as a result the last couple of patches, unfortunately this is what is happening._** These are my experiences in lower-elo solo games (which are the biggest part of LoL community), and as such i do not accept ANY solution which requires coordinated teamwork as a viable solution to these problems.**_ Reasoning for this is that i believe the game must first and foremost remain FUN while playing alone. First Juggernauts aren't the same as Vanguard or Wardens. Juggernauts are guys like Darius, Volibear, Garen or Morde, they're slow and have little to no cc, but in exchange can take a beating and give it as well. Vanguards and wardens (Naut or Sej for the first, Shen and new Galio for the second) lack the damage (*cough cough*, that is the theory and the problem nowadays) but have reliable cc and some mobility. Second and most important: The bold italic words, I remember you, League of Legends is a TEAMgame. It's completely balanced around the fact that you're not alone and you're suppossed to play with your team to overcome your weak spots. If you're not accepting TEAM solutions in a TEAM game, then the problem isn't on the class, it's on you, and you should look for a different game. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > **Snowballing** > Over the last couple of seasons, Riot has been doing its best to make snowballing harder, and comebacks a bit easier. > Juggernauts with a couple kills become unstoppable killing machines. Basically, when the enemy juggernaut gets ahead, you've pretty much lost the game. They can permanenty push tower and if you want to gank them, you have to do this with at least 3 players, and still hope you don't trade 1 for 1, or even 1 for 2. Seeing this i find i really strange that Riot decided to implement juggernauts this way as it completely contradicts their reasoning for destroying AD carries. Well, there are a LOT of champions who are like that. Split pushers play that game: they get feed/outscale their opponents and force a 3 vs 1 in a lane to buy their team time. That is not something strange or unbalanced, is just a matter of playstyle, and not all Juggernauts are good at that. Mordekaiser, Volibear or Darius prefer to teamfighting and make use of their team's utility and cc to maximize their kit's power. They can ofc split push, but because they've no mobility they'll end dead, probably with nothing in exchange unless you're playing REALLY bad. > **Mobility** > As the quote on top of this thread states, Riot intended for juggernauts to be "immobile". Seeing [this](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed/Table) table, it seems like Juggernauts have equal or higher base movement speed then over half of the champion pool. Allowing them to easily catch up to basically anyone in a straight up race. Ofcourse, there are champions that are able to kite these juggernauts, but this is where the second problem comes in. Most, if not all, of these juggernauts also have gap closing or hooking abilities allowing them to get into melee range without any real effort. These points together completely nullify the "immobility" of juggernauts. They have some little extra ms because if they had the same ms than a range champion then they would ALWAYS lose, which isn't the case. The idea is that you need to kite to kill them, not that you can just stand still and aa them to death before they can even grasp you. The majority of them haven't skills to REACH you, but rather to stick up to you, altough each jugger is a world. Darius for example will be USELESS if noone is at 375 range of him aprox, but if you let him catch up to you, then he'll punish you for that with damage and his melee slows. That is why they LOVE vanguards, they need someone to START the fight. Obviously there are some guys like Garen or Voli who have ms boosts to reach you, but such a tiny boost won't be enough by itself. > **Itemization** > This one doesn't need alot of explaining. It's the problem that makes the META what it is. Every other type of champion has to make decisions in game choosing between offensive or defensive items. Tank champions are the one exception which are able to go full defensive builds and still deal massive amounts of damage. This gives them a huge advantage over all other classes. I'm agreeing here with you, TANK itemization needs some updating (hence the tank update). > **Early game** > Other than the main quote of this thread may lead you to believe, juggernauts are not **that** weak in the early game. They can still trade well and even win fights, and for those who cant, they mostly have an ability which can easily clear waves (sometimes from a safe distance). Which in my opinion is really weird. Sure, this champion can be really strong late game. But at least give me the ability to completely destroy them in early and mid game then. But that is not the case either. They are super strong late game and a little weaker if not on-par than other champions early. Um... that is not true at all. It's true most juggernauts have good early, but not all of them have a good late game. For example Illaoi, Garen or Voli fall off really hard in the later stages. > **Jungle** > Now some of you may come up with the solution to "camp top" in early game. And while this is a valid solution it creates different problems like boring gameplay, requirement for good team communication and cooperation, tilting players turning to toxic players. Which i think is not something Riot should want. Apart from that, it still does not mean the juggernaut will be useless, no, far from it. He has to be kept down for the entire duration of the game if you want to keep him from easily destroying every player on your team, which is something that in (lower elo) solo games is near impossible to achieve. I'm not even sure what to answer here, 'Jungle' as a topic is too diverse, but seems like you're referring to ganks: 'Camping' is a good answer to most juggers, and it isn't at all 'boring', it just changes the dynamic of the game with focus on the toplane, so basically means than both the enemy jungler and the enemy jugger will have to play with that in mind. > **Kite** > Usually this is the right way to fight a juggernaut, but i can not agree on this in teamfights. You see in teamfights if the juggernaut just destroys your 4 teammates in mere seconds, there isnt much left to do but run away. The problem is that these champions usually gain their lead early in the game during laning phase (where they are supposed to be weak) and snowball out of this so that in teamfights it is already to late to do anything about it. Everything you say here has been explained in my earlier statements. > Another point that troubles me is the fact that they can push lanes very easily and usually this would mean losing a tower and with that, some map control. And the more map control you lose, the riskier it becomes to kite as it compromises positioning. (And i didn't say anything about gap-closers and ranged CC yet!) > So, they've waveclear. That is the only point I see here. Yeah, they do, another strength to add up to them, and with the added weakness that all of their trading skills push, so they haven't a lot of control over the wave, making easy to push unintentionally and become vulnerable to ganks. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I understand Riot wants to offer a "unique" playstyle to some champions, but i think they clearly went wrong here. > Champions with massive damage and durability MUST have real apparent and noticable weaknesses, just as noticable as their strenghts in the late game. Mainly mobility and early game, which i think in their current states are really weak trade-offs compared to what juggernauts have to offer in late game. > > Any champion this strong should not have any gap-closing, or ranged farming abilities and early damage should be toned down so that fighting early is not an option and overextending is basically suicide as to stop their pushing power early. To be very usefull late game, you have to be very useless early game. My conclussion is that the JUGGERNAUTS, not the TANKS, are a well-rounded class with well-defined weaknesses and strengths you've to learn to exploit. I hope my points help you dealing with them. Have a nice day!
: No, the way it works now is there are 2 kinds of stealth: - Invisible - Camouflaged Champions that have invisibility as stealth can not be seen however close the enemy champion may be standing, they also can't be spotted by control wards. However champions that have camouflage as stealth CAN be seen by control wards. Since twitch's stealth is camouflage he can be seen when near an enemy champion and / or control ward. - Infinite
Oh, I see, sorry for the confusion caused, thank you for the info!
Febos (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Granclan,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=WtEZXAZG,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-16T13:20:44.234+0000) > > No no no, control wards don't see you at all. This guy is incorrect and [Infinitesimus](http://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/WtEZXAZG-am-i-seen-in-twitch-q-near-control-ward?comment=000000000001) said it right. You'll be seen by a control ward, if you are camouflaged. [Control Ward](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Control_Ward) It's literally in the description of the item: "Camouflaged units will be revealed".
Oh shit, right, I mixed up things really badly. Sorry for that, just checked it up. Guess everyday you learn something new ^^, thank you guys
Mada (EUW)
: I'm not talking about the good things, I'm only complaining about the bad stuff! I like the changes to Talisman most of all. The only things I really want now are: 1) more than 1 player in practice mode 2) mute for pings 3) a special board where all the "I got permabanned for nothing, here is my chatlog" threads go
And thaaaat's politics. Someone give this man a gem {{champion:44}}
Infernape (EUW)
: >Season 1, 2, 3 and 4 had more issues than Season 7, or at least weren't as interesting. Ah remember Kassadin's near 100% ban rate?
Or Ekko's near 95%, he just needed a few more patches to beat Kassadin's throne... what a pity. He can steal time, but not that.
AkiWind (EUNE)
: Riot can you disable Garen in Ranked ?
Most Garens don't even know how to build or max in him o_O, he's strong in lower divisions because people don't know how to deal with him, but higher up there are a lot of ways to deny him his fantasy, like building a more kitey-focused comp, making sure flanks are warded or freeze him and gank him early on. Gl with finding out those!, look at some streaming or guides, it may help you ^^ Have a nice day!
ThePikol (EUNE)
: So if I'm camuflaged, Lee is too far to see me himself but the contor ward is near me enough, he sees me?
No no no, control wards don't see you at all. Nothing. They just track wards. I'm talking about how close Lee Sin was. Moreover there are some skills or items which give a hint or even reveal where you're. For example the red trinket leaves a 'red image' where you're, the river plant can spot and reveal you and if you step on a Cait's trap you'll be visible.
: placement system
When you first play rankeds your elo is based on your normal games MMR, because there's no other stadistic to look up at, so if he had a 50%+ winrate while leveling his MMR stayed at silver level aprox. Meanwhile, you already were Bronze last year, and taking into account that every year people usually demote at the very least 3-4 divisions on average, it's not so strange you ended up lower. It's Riot's way to avoid people creeping up on the middle-upper brackets and enforcing us to move our ass, specially challengers who demote from up to 800 LP to P1, which is for them like a D1 demoting to Bronze
ThePikol (EUNE)
: Am I seen in Twitch Q near Control Ward?
Since the assasins update people can't see you with control wards anymore, but due to Twitch being camouflaged he can be spotted if someone is near enough, either from seeing you directly or getting a warning until you're closer. Have a nice day my good sir!
: [Suggestion] New Lissandra passive
Thematic-wise it's nice, but I don't think it adds that much to her gameplay-wise. First: it's way too extreme. With that I mean that it can be either completely useless (against someone who doesn't builds Rilay's) or just completely bonkers (Ashe passive?, lol nice try). One of the reasons why Galio and Taric were reworked was to avoid that, look at them now!, they're better than usual when building MR/armor, but they don't invalidate completely a champion just because they exist. Having champions who're stronger in X conditions or against Y kind of champions are nice and healthy, but having champions who are useless against X and make Y non-existant are really toxic. The try was kind of nice tho, it fits her thematically quite well, but sadly I don't think that will ever be a thing on her because of game health ):
Gojiraw (EUW)
: Sounds stupid, but you should do what's right. Sometimes you can roam, other times you can't. Everything you do in this game is a trade. You leave to roam, you might lose some farm. You need to ask yourself if it's worth, based on how much farm you lose and how big the probability to get kills is. Because if you roam just for the sake of it and you don't get a kill out of it, or you end up dying, there's not too much point to your "roam", it was a bad decision and you are behind because of it. Even if you take a kill. If that require you to lose 3-4 minion waves, might not worth. Usually, you want to push the minion wave under the enemy tower before leaving the lane. That way, you reset the minion wave, and it will either push towards you or stay in the middle. So, by the time you get back, you are not gonna lose too much farm. On top lane, most of the times, early on, you will want to farm. You shouldn't roam for mid ganks too often. You not only lose gold, but you lose XP. And that's crucial for hitting your lvl 6 power spike. You end up returning to your lane and you will be under leveled when compared with your opponent. And you can't really have great value, even if you have a good gank mid. Mid laners won't usually have enough damage to take down tower quick. If you want to look for ganks, you should look for ganks on bot lane, using your teleport. That opens up more follow-ups. You can get bottom tower easier, as you have the ADC that deals more damage to towers, you can go for Dragon. In that case, even if you lose your top tower, it's a good trade if you took first blood tower on bottom lane, maybe Dragon too. But you need good map awareness and you need to understand the game a bit in order to pull good ganks. Because if you wasted your teleport for a gank early on and you did nothing with it, you pretty much lost your top lane. That thing with "I give the kill away so they won't focus me" it's just silly. As Wukong playing top, you should try to have sign over your head saying "come gank me!". You split push, you can evade ganks or even 1v2 in some cases. Kills are not something you get in order to establish who the enemy will focus. You get them for gold and XP, to get fed, to hit your power spikes faster and be more powerful and also to open up objectives. As Wukong you should never let a kill if you can take it. If you would play something like Malphite or Maokai, you should be ok with assists, but with Wukong, you need to deal damage and carry. Long story short, focus on farming on your lane, learn to play that lane before looking to do plays across the map.
9/10 points!, altough I'd like to add my humble extra opinion: you haven't to JUST roam. There are a ton of possibilities, like warding, stealing or even invading the enemy jungler. Sometimes something as silly as sitting in a bush without vision close to your lane will exercise pressure due to people fearing your ganks.
: These weren't buffs... the buffs come later. Aatrox in his old state was impossible to safely balance as he was extremely unhealthy... this change was to remove some of the unhealthyness in his kit so that riot can actually support him for the first time since his release, at least until his class update. The thing is that a lot of the unhealthy things riot targeted where things which aatrox players used as crutches as they where his strongest part, especially his revive as that caused him to have his notorious level 2 cheese while also causing the rest of him to suffer for taking all of the power budget... Any change trying to deal with these issues where inevitably gonna feel bad because they where the only thing going for aatrox atm... but for aatrox to meet his potential he needed to have these changes... and besides it was either this or remove the revive entirely and that would have been worse.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Someone give this good sir a {{item:2052}}
ThePikol (EUNE)
: Special taunts have too small range
That is honestly a really good question, because some phrases are GOLDEN.
: Some champs aren't meant to be played in bronze... simply... DON'T PICK THEM!!!!
That is really Nazi my good sir. We're free to pick the champion we desire if we're not INTENDING to troll, that is the key word. If he fed with Rek'sai, that was just because the enemy jungler played better than yours. That's it. Forget everything else and keep moving forward, next game the Rek'sai may be in his team, and then you've no excuse to lose.
Biuvoc (EUW)
: How you carry low players??
> [{quoted}](name=Biuvoc,realm=EUW,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=ENERKO3E,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-16T12:33:47.946+0000) > > Just how..and before you say you can i can tell you that is not... Um... okay...? Then why open this post in the first place good sir? If you want a real answer with proof and explanations, then I'll gladly be your Taric, but if you're just here to ask us to cry for you I'm sorry but I ran out of tears already with the other ton of posts which don't add up at all to healthy debate.
Nherax (EUW)
: Season 7 has been the worst season, ever.
There have been so many 'worst seasons' that I lost count
Wadud92 (EUW)
: Why is Yasuo W better than Braum E?
Well, I think they've different functions and kits. First: the most important factor: Braum can MOVE while his 'e' is active. If Braum denied all projectile's damage while shielding would be like a self-Kayle ult with 4s duration on a basic ability. THAT WOULD BE INSANE. Yasuo's windwall has longer cd and is stationary, which makes it more of a zoning tool, and Braum's is to completely nullify projectile damage on an ally for 4s with the added benefit of some extra tankyness, and in exchange taking it himself. So, Ithink no skill is better than the other, you've to look at the entire kit and champ's function first. Braum's would be absurdly broken if he had the immunity to projectiles Yas' w has, and Yas would be even HARDER to balance if his w followed him. Each one has a different strenght which sinergyse wth their kits: Braum for protecting an ally and Yas for creating a momentary 'safe zone' and zone some opponents.
: Toughts about Graves rework revertion
I liked old Graves, but personally I prefer the new one. His kit is way more unique, fun and satisfying, before he was just exactly the same as Luc. I understand the feeling of people who can't play him at bot lane anymore tho, it probably sucked the shift to jungle. Still I think he's in a far better spot right now.
: Help for improving in solo q(NON RANKED).
Honestly, this is really vague to give you a proper explanation, because there a lot of unknown factors: like the champions you're playing with and against, how big of a lead the enemy has, your team's actual positioning, vision... etc. We can just give you general advice with that information, you should download the replay and look at it yourself to know what exactly you could do better, maybe even look at some high elo players. Sorry for not being more helpful.
: Doubt about the new Warwick
1. The trail is just seen by you, but enemies will know when they're being tracked 2. The ms passive actives always that someone is low, no matter where they're or if you've vision of them. Even if the enemy jungler is doing his red, if he has less than half HP you'll smell him and win extra ms when running towards him. The as passive activates just when the thing you're aa'ing is low. 3. If they're in the range of the spell and you activate it, you'll smell them just like if they were under 50%, even if they're full.
orrvaa (EUNE)
: i think we got to the final answer XD ty for the help i will try the E max fist and see how it goes, and i will try some Q ability to see how it work in diffrent levels, thanks
Alright!, I'm glad it helped you at all. Gl with your games!, it has been a pleasure ^^ have a nice day!
Biuvoc (EUW)
: Climbing is all about luck skills doesnt exist.
There's a little problem, something you didn't account for: that everything under Masters is TRASH. You, me or your hot neighbour, doesn't matter, we're all THRASH. We make thousands of mistakes every game, and even in master and challenger you can count handfulls of them. So stop acting like you're somehing else. EVERYONE. IS. TRASH. That's it. Both on your and THEIR team. The difference between you and a G5 player is that instead of thousand of mistakes, THEIR EXISTENCE IS A MISTAKE (don't get mad, I love you goldies <3). And you've to accept that. We've to understand that the amount of mistakes we make are abysmal. Maybe you missed a minion, maybe you didn't aa your enemy when he was last hitting. Maybe you took a little too long to tp, or maybe you didn't have to tp and just take their turret. We do such an absurd amount of mistakes that it amazes me, so don't focus on climbing, or on 'who is to blame for our loss'. Forget that. The only thing which remains the same from game to game is YOU, and YOU have the potential to be awesome. The rest of people, both in your team and theirs is thrash, because they will remain stucked there, but you're different, right? You won't cry in a corner. You will concentrate on your own mistakes, understand that you've the potential to become GREAT, and kick some serious ass, downloading your replays and looking at that little cs you missed, or that the enemy jungler was 100 hp farming the krugs like a temerary while you had the enemy top lane pushed with a giga-wave and you just waited in the bush, those little things which hadn't come to your mind in the lust of battle, become clear and obvious under your heedful gaze. And the next game you won't miss THAT cs. You will show the enemy jungler WHO IS THE MAN. You'll be awesome.
orrvaa (EUNE)
: 1: the W armor (active) scale with health so i prefere is as the stun don't give much more time for stuns, 2: why you think 3 points mean i will wast mana?, it will make the Q cost 100 mana and give just more 20 hp per charge. it will be better to use it as cooldown manager with the cost of just 60 mana. and about items, the only items i every bought on taric for mana are forbidden idol and frozen heart, as i now buy only frobidden idol and it will be the 5th or 6th item.
1: Well, as I said before: a 0,5s extra stun is what makes you put points on some ULTIMATES, which mean that it's MUCH more time for a basic spell, personally I would take that any day over a little extra % hp and armor, which scale with items, and due to supp's low income it'll take a while for the bonus to really kick in. 2: The thing is: you'll have excessive amounts of mana in the late game if you don't put points in your 'q', so at the VERY least you should put 3 points on it. From there on, it may require 'some' mana management in long tfs, so it's up to you
orrvaa (EUNE)
: answer at your time :D don't worry. i think the ability that W passive armor can make it equal to E, i think witch one is depend on the player play syle, as taric dont have mcuh movement diffrence early his E alot of time won't touch anyone, so if you max W both of you have more sustain (especially with the keystone of Windspeaker's Blessing, if you max E you should take colosus) but the main question i try to say it after i maxed W and E, should i max Q or let me be on the first level as i will have more mana sustaion and won't lose much as i can W and E more
1: About the max order: the problem with that is that 'w' ranks increase your % armor. That means that you need armor items to make it worth it, and taking into account support's income and their items are normally more focused towards health early on (Sighstone, FotM...) when is the time you're maxing it, losing part of it's efficiency. 2: I think you should always max it. Later in the game you'll have a lot of mana both from items and your base stats, which should allow you to cast it to afford the mana costs. At the very least you should ALWAYS put up to 3 points, because otherwise you'll be wasting mana. Have a nice day ^^
orrvaa (EUNE)
: you have interesting view on the play style i love it, lets start with that my max order is W>E>Q, you see W as mimic managment, i see it more as a shiled (so you can heal throw it and stun throw it) (you can see in my [guild](http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/s7-bodyguard-taric-support-updated-for-7-3-495873) how is see Taric if you want :D) you say Q as you level it make it much more power full, the problem is that i dont fill that. lets say, priority to heal most = you should spam Q. of curse mana must be count as it the only thing that deny you from healing all the game (such as soraka mana early and HP late game). Q at level 1 heals for 20 +ap+hp. while each other level only gives 10 more hp per stack, Q at level 4 heal so for 50 +ap+hp, in the same cost of 2 Q at level 1. lets say you want to spam Q you will get more healing for using twice the Q at level 1 then once the Q at level 4. try to not max Q second some games. check the diffrent in healing power you will see it something like that same, i tried it.
Sorry for the late response mate ^^', I like you're enjoying the debate :D Mmm... that max order preference is kind of important to the topic. I personally always max 'e' because it's just bonkers how well it scales (+0,5s AoE stun and 50 extra damage/rank with no extra mana cost IS. CRAZY.), but let's try to look at it from your approach. I don't exactly see the shield just as a mimic, rather I value more that feature than the shield itself, so if I've to exchange a good mimic candidate x the shield, I usually go for the mimic. Now, the thing is that with your max order that is more relative, because the shield's strength is way higher, and will become in your main protection spell, restricting your freedom. Now, if you're maxing 'w' then there's no debate on whether you should follow with q or e, go for 'e'. End. It's just way too strong. If you're doubting between maxing q or w first go for 'w' with no doubt. The mana costs are unbearable early on, no matter how powerful it may be. Q should be always 2nd or 3rd max. Now, that is a different topic: I recommend you to max out 'e' first. Even if you're up against a Zyra + Caitlyn lane, Dazzle offers such an incredible amount of power that is nuts. - First: from an utility standpoint, a 0,5s stun is quite good, specially for a normal ability (just think about this: Sejuani's ultimate is rated as one of the strongest ultimates in the game, stated even from Riot when they wrote her direction post, and she just gets 0,25s extra stun duration per spell rank). - Second: There's a reason why Taric, being such a high utility supp has that crazy 50 base damage on his e (because yeah, it's really nuts, even assasins like Talon get just 40 damage points/rank on average with their main dmg ability), and it's because it's his only damage ability, and due to that they've to concentrate all of that power on 1 skill, resulting in outrageous amounts of gems. Have a nice day! ^^
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Granclan

Level 46 (EUW)
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