: Galio gets more use from his passive lategame when he goes top. Midlane forces him to go damage, which sucks on him. You can even see that his toplane winrate is way above his midlane winrate (Swain may have affected this a little, but 2% is still a lot). And by the way, the argument you used to Galio having a ranged basic attack in this conversation was so he could attack other champions, not minions. That is what I argumented against when talking about Darius. Ranged autoattacks would actually be even better for Galio in toplane, since that would allow him to poke extremely effectively (and considering he's quite effective in melee range too, they would be unable to engage on him). But how fun is ranged autoattacks in toplane? Not very. Swain and Vlad are tanky mages, not tanks with mage aspects. These are two different things. Lastly, Galio has to build TANKY to get the damage, and he gets inheretly less damage from going full tank to going full ap. His passive is meant to make people want to build tanky items on him, not give him a damage bonus from items like abyssal. Saying Galio is more of a mage because of his passive is like saying Tahm is a damage dealer too.
Yea let's not talk about win rates, they mean nothing and they are just an illusion about the champion's position if not looked closely. Fizz has bellow 50% win rate because there are so many players who play him and there are more who lose than win obviously ,so does that make Fizz weak and not viable, no because we all know that Fizz is a very powerful and unique assassin that can 100-0 his enemies in 2-3 seconds. Karthus who is played by 0.2% of the player community has 53% win rate on TOP, so yeah there is probably less than 1% of the players who actually play Galio, main him and obviously enjoy him. So when we talk about win rates we can assume that everyone above 52% is strong, no we have to consider his 0.28% pick rate and 0.11% ban rate, so in conclusion no one plays him no one bans him and he has 54% win rate for patch 6.13 while he had 48% win rate in patch 6.12 and guess what changed for him in 6.13, nothing at all nor the items he builds. Also not to mention his AP BUILD that gives him this winrate not his TANK BUILD. So people play Galio as a mage/tank much more than they play him as a tank/mage. If you're saying that he's a tank with mage aspects just because Riot put his primary role Tank instead of Mage, well I'll just say that Gangplank was a support as his secondary role before. Maybe he was a tank before like in season 1 or 2 but last 3-4 seasons people play him with the slightly same build like today's. This post is mostly about Galio's farming but you said that his ranged kit won't work like melee doesn't and it would be awkward to play with. Every time you get near a minion you get punished for it and your Q costs too much mana to use it as a farming tool until you get your items of course (like every other champion), you get punished for 20-30% hp just for one basic attack to a minion from any type of spell either be Trundle Q+AA combos top since he gets that really well, Darius' pull and passive slaughter, Gangplank's barrels or just Q, you don't have sustain like Vladimir or Swain and even if you want sustain you have to level up W a lot for it's help at all and if you level W instead of Q well you should say goodbye to your chances of ever killing an enemy early on. And while they have 100cs in 15th minute you'll have half of that or even less if your opponent knows how to control you since you can't get near and you lose a lot by trying. And you are wrong for so many things about Galio, did you even play him? I'm sorry but you are talking about a tank Galio that wasn't even seen for ages. He rushes Rod of Ages every game and gets Abyssal Scepter to get damage and reduce the defence of his enemies not tank their damage. His ultimate gives him 50% damage reduction for the duration and has an excellent AP scaling that's a really amazing. No need to go tanky on Galio that much at all if you really know the champion. He builds like an Anivia except for Spirit Visage, and Anivia is no where near a tank (just an example, Anivia is totally irrelevant). "His passive is meant to make people want to build tanky items on him, not give him a damage bonus from items like abyssal" But he gets damage from his passive not tank stats, and abyssal boosts his damage even more because of the MR and MR reduction and AP. He gets 30 more AP from it. Galio has damaging abilities and speed boosts and even his own damage boost when he casts W on him self since it gives him AP from passive besides armor and MR, his ultimate ability gives him 50 % damage reduction and returns insane damage to his enemies. So why should anyone build tank Galio rather than mage/tank, oh yeah no one actually builds him tank. I'm saying that Galio is more of a mage than tank that's for sure and please stop comparing other champions' special traits with Galio or any other champion because it's really not a great argument and it's quite empty if you ask me. Also I don't play Galio as much as I do other champions (Gangplank,Shaco,Gragas) but everytime I do i have so much fun with him, he's a delight to play with, has amazing and fun abilities and no one plays him and that's really sad. So just make him ranged to ease up something about him instead of torturing him with melee basic attack. He doesn't need buffs to his kit, doesn't need a rework at all, he just needs some help with his farming. They can reduce his AD if the harassing is a problem but every AP ranged champion on top (except Teemo) barely use basic attacks and even when they use it, a lot of melee bruisers/tank can retaliate with no problem. Best regards kind sir, I'm hoping for a full comeback from you since you're the only one actually arguing this with me. Thank you
G0dot (EUW)
: Y sure , better make the #5 highest ad at lvl 1 ranged {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
They can reduce his AD at early levels, it's not really about harassing your lane opponents, it's about not taking free Zed shurikens or full LB combo or insane poke from Azir or etc... just to get that 1 minion. No one builds him AD so it really doesn't matter. This is about having some safe farming like the rest of the champions in LoL and that would help him a lot with farming or killing enemies that survive with that 10 hp or just auto attacking a person after you use your ult instead of using Q.
: Galio doesn't need any rework at all ! Just an update ! I agree with some things and disagree with others. His splash art isn't that bad but since many got theyre splashes updated now galio sits in the queue for an update as well, same as for his visuals in game and abilities FX, besides not mentioning galio in game visual do not match with the splash art colours at all. About his gameplay let me say, FOR THOSE WHO SAY HE NEEDS FULL REWORK, they are insane or can't play with him, because galio is OP in the right hands, besides his lore and art are preety unique (he is the only gargoyle in the game, he is a guardian sentinel and got those beautifull colours, 3 things that do not exist in the game) So no, he do not need a sion sized rework, thats insane, and would probably ruin his unique characteristics that only him have, but yes, someone at riot mentioned a few weeks ago that galio is in the queue for a rework (i dont know about the size, but im sure that isn't that big). - Now about the kit, i fully agree that he needs ranged auto-atacks, being melee with like a full ranged kit do not make any sense. - About his passive ? Its perfect as it is ! - About his Q is perfect and i will hate if they change it, buffing it isn't the way to go because his Q is so OP, i don't know about your built but with my built i would almost one shot every squishie just with Q (i will post my built on end), but i do agree with one thing, his Q needs just one change, because the ability icon do not match with the ability in game, the icons shows that he shoots that blast from his eyes but in game it seems like that he rather shoots with the mouth lol so, either they change the ability to be like a shooting laser in a skillshot line to match the icon, or they just leave the ability like it is but then they need to change his icon, regardless of any changes, the damage should remain the same. - About his W, it's useless early game yeah, but maxed and in late game it's really OP, he can just sit in the backline with low hp and shield any frontliner that is eating damage and he will be almost full hp if not really full ! Not mentioning that is so funny taking advantage of those sat*n shrooms {{champion:17}} and its poison, you can just step on them and they will heal you a lot just like his auto atacks or any poison damage from any champion ! Teemo players are useless vs galio ! Adding the fact that your W increases your AP for the duration (minding his passive), since it gives you other stats but magic resist as well, while you have the W active on you, your Q/E/Ult will be empowered ! And if that wasn't enough you can just use it on any frontliner being engage to increase theyre tank stats. - About his E, with this i must say, it's very weak, yeah you can use it to have a escape path to yourself and your team, you can use it to chase even if it's just to land a Q or a ignite, and when enemies are out of the lane using this will rush your minions to the enemies turrets, meaning a instant hard push ! Sometimes, since most of people are not used to galio, you can just use it to last hit a low hp enemy, it worked with me a lot of times xD But overall, the damage is very low, and besides that low utility its really useless, so i can agree with a rework on this, or just a buff. Or even maybe adding a passive to the ability. - About the ult, do i really need to say anything ? It's OP and it's very unique in this game, so yeah, i won't agree with any changes on it. By the way, for those who think they main galio, if you have never used the combo flash+ult+W+Q+E and spamming Q's while you chase the low hp fugitive enemies, you don't main him for real. So yeah, resuming it, i would agree with an updated splash art with visuals and abilities FX as well for his icons, i would agree with a ranged auto-atack change and maybe a buff or a passive on his E, nothing more. My old school galio build (i haven't played him this season yet, so i don't know if the athene's it's still viable, but still im gona post it) {{champion:3}} = {{item:3020}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3285}} {{item:3135}} (the 2 last items are optional and may be situational depending on the team needs or the enemy team composition) With this build, i was OP with just the 3 first items, galio is an ap champ who is anti-ap's, isn't this beautifull and unique ? So no, giving him a sion rework size would ruin him most likely, and besides, there are champs that need a truly rework before anything happens to him, im talking about those {{champion:83}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:6}}
Thank you for your rich and colorful response sir you are appreciated!!
teemos (EUW)
: he is strong enough if he gets ranged attacks he will be too op and i am also asking if you are trolling
Can you elaborate why would he be too op, I need a strong argument from you to explain why would he be overpowered with a ranged attack. If he could become ranged he will be played more and he would surely be in a good spot. Give some love to {{champion:3}}
CppL (EUW)
: Little update?? make champ ranged and give him annie range?!!? pls tell me you trolling.
Why am I trolling? The champion obviously needs a little adjustment in his laning phase, this could save him without buffing his whole kit.
: So it's a weakness when you can't farm your lane like every other champion? You get punished on top already because 90% of the champions on top are AD/Tanks that negate Galio's passive since he doesn't need MR. Darius is a poor example to compare to Galio's melee range since he benefits very much from his basic attack. He buffs his ultimate ability with it and he applies his passive so yea you can't say this for Galio as well since his kit is irrelevant to his basic attack. I don't see what's the problem for Galio to have a ranged basic attack it can even be like Thresh's range it doesn't matter. And surely when someone plays Galio you don't see him in a support role ever. The champion is old and outdated so why not give him ranged manaless farming so that he can farm like the rest of the mages and some tanks. Vladimir and Swain are tanky mages who are pretty much ranged and their kit also require the champion to be near his enemies just like Galio, so why is he the only tank/mage suffering from a melee basic attack. He's immobile tank/mage who suffers from building health+armor as his first/second items, has a weak AP scaling to Q/E and he benefits offensively from his passive since the passive gives him damage stats not tank stats.
And a lot of top AP champions have healing/shielding abilities to negate his damage. Galio is not a good pick on top, but he could be really well on mid lane if he was granted a ranged basic attack.
: Having a weakness and not fitting to something are two different things. Did you know that Darius also has a hard time getting to his opponents, and that he would be excellent with a ranged basic attack. But guess what, he doesn't have a ranged basic attack. I think you are extremely biased towards midlane Galio here. The champion fits support and toplane much more, especially since they allow for him to build tanky without being a massive burden to his team (and he has to build at least somewhat tanky).
So it's a weakness when you can't farm your lane like every other champion? You get punished on top already because 90% of the champions on top are AD/Tanks that negate Galio's passive since he doesn't need MR. Darius is a poor example to compare to Galio's melee range since he benefits very much from his basic attack. He buffs his ultimate ability with it and he applies his passive so yea you can't say this for Galio as well since his kit is irrelevant to his basic attack. I don't see what's the problem for Galio to have a ranged basic attack it can even be like Thresh's range it doesn't matter. And surely when someone plays Galio you don't see him in a support role ever. The champion is old and outdated so why not give him ranged manaless farming so that he can farm like the rest of the mages and some tanks. Vladimir and Swain are tanky mages who are pretty much ranged and their kit also require the champion to be near his enemies just like Galio, so why is he the only tank/mage suffering from a melee basic attack. He's immobile tank/mage who suffers from building health+armor as his first/second items, has a weak AP scaling to Q/E and he benefits offensively from his passive since the passive gives him damage stats not tank stats.
: It wouldn't fit his W, passive, and ult. Like what sort of tank has a ranged basic attack, that would be horrifyingly awkward to play with. Galio needs a full Sion sized rework. Riot knows this, and are probably already working on it. PS: Galio is actually really strong at the moment, so buffing him would be silly without compensations, especially considering that having such a toxic character be top-tiered would be horrifying.
And his melee range fits with his passive, W and ult? When he R's a ranged champion he can't even touch him unless he uses his Q that is very slow and easy to dodge or E that will be wasted and not used for escape or something like that. He's not played like all the tanks nor he builds like other tanks and that's the point, so why not give him ranged attack and grant him this uniqueness as a ranged "tank/mage" and try to make him viable. His farming would be much easier to manage and he won't get hurt or waste a lot of mana for using Q just to get that 1 minion. There are a lot of toxic characters in LoL but I really don't think that Galio is one of them
Rioter Comments
: Could you imagine people getting like ~20% increased healing and shielding on themselves just from masteries? Using logic, you wouldn't even have to bother reading the text. Add Visage to that and we would have rampant Mundos and Vladimirs with Windspeakers all around.
I'm not saying anything about numbers.. I'm just saying that the text is misleading. It says : " Your heals and shields are 10 % stronger. " There is a full stop there... But in the game it says: "Your heals and shields (excluding yourself) are 10% stronger" The rest is not important since the first sentence ends and so does it's context, the 2nd part is completely independent. They just need to make it clear. Is the 10% heal working on self heal or not? In the client it says that it's working but in the game it says that it's not.
Rioter Comments
: _First of all you are ADC very squishy damage dealer vulnerable to ALL ASSASSINS_ Strange, I can counter Rengar, Kha'Zix, Jarvan, Evelyn pretty easily. And you're not "VULERNABLE TO ALL ASSASSINS" if you see that Katarina is coming, if you won't escape, it's not about being squishy, it's just lack of experience. Seeing assassins? RUN. Not kinda possible with Shaco is it? _Second of all you are being reckless doing dragon alone and why are you doing dragon without purple ward..._ Not doing alone, he can almost one-shot me, so what that I'm with support and jungler? He pulls off 80% of HP. EIGHTY PER-CENT. _don't blame champions for your mistakes_ <.<, what?... nice try, won't work. _Third of all if you see a "!" when Rengar is near you can also say goodbye to your life_ At least then you know to use your pinkie place it on yourself, Caitlyn, Graves, Ezreal, Draven, Sivir have pretty good kit to get that kitty off. With Shaco, you don't know where or when, it's like Garen in the bush, it just happens to kill you instantly. (reference to Doom Bots). _Shaco is a one shooter like almost all assassins in the game_ Yea, but every assassin has counterplay. CC, damage, Mercurial thing, there's something you can do, but not with unexpected Shaco, which is just "boom, 0.5s, dead! *Shutdown!*". Tell me which champions you have problem with? Because I imagine I can counter all. EXCEPT SHACO (and Mordekaiser, but then again, my W (Draven), E (Sivir/Graves/Ezreal), I can always run). _You can be 20/0/100 Draven you will still build Full damage build without armor/mr/health and you will get wrecked by every assassin in the game._ counterplay (ˈkaʊntəˌpleɪ) noun: a positive or aggressive action by the defending side, esp in chess verb (intransitive) to make an opposing or positive action from a position of defence Guess what, Shaco has none. You can't run, you can't hide, you can't avoid, he's always somewhere to one-shot. "Bad boys, bad boys, whatchu gonna do, whatchu gonna do when he'll come for you." _I said not to buff his damage output or defense just remove something that isn't necessary at all._ At least when I see that "bug" in FoW. I know he's there so there any counterplay at all. "Unnecessary". I don't know where, I don't know when, but I know that I can stand under turret or use pinky. _He's countered by vision like all junglers and also by his Q smoke effect if you have slightly better peripheral vision in the FOG OF WAR._ I see that there's a smoke, and I mentioned why it should remain above. **Your profile > Shaco:** **221.3k Experience Points** **85 games played** Nah, I'm not gonna discuss with you about it, you're Shaco main, meaning you will make up every single argument, just to have that little window of vulnerability removed.
First of all I said in the post that I'm a Shaco main I'm not denying that. Also everything you said about Rengar can be said about Shaco why not just put pink beside you when team fight starts... I don't see how that won't help. It's like you didn't even play the game against assassins who are ahead and you talk about counterplay like you can dominate against 10/0/0 Zed or 10/0/0 Kha or any assassin ever. You say Shaco doesn't have counterplay so tell me, why isn't Shaco on top solo queue champion with highest win rate. Your argument is invalid sorry. Just because you hate Shaco doesn't mean he's OP. But I see there's no point in arguing with you, you set your mind for this long time ago :)
Kaycee777 (EUW)
: >Ok most of the slows are longer than 2 seconds and all have visuals on his feet and ignite is longer than 3 seconds and has a big visual. You can use your Q almost immediately after ult. >When I cast ult it takes ~0.75 seconds for clone to appear, and you are telling me that you can't see a visual debuff on the real Shaco? Only a dumb shaco will ult with debuff on him (except it's 1v1 or 1v2 against low HP enemies). >Also either he engages with Q and doesn't escape , or he escapes with Q with no engage there is 10 sec base cooldown there. If you can engage without Q, why use it? Because of crit? Better save it for execute/chase. 20% CDR with Warrior enchantment + Ghostblade bringing CD of his Q to 8 CD. You can probably survive till then. >W takes about 2 seconds to activate so it's not reliable in fights that much since AoE can destroy it easily. Why not drop it before/immediately fight starts? That's called Forward Planning.
You are going more and more specific about things and this can take on forever but: 1) If I use Q almost immediately after ult than all that's left is the clone.. so you just shut yourself down with distinguishing clone from real one 2) You have to use ult to dodge specific skills in order to survive and if you have DoT on you it's better to dodge than to play a mind game. Not a single Shaco will use ult if you DoT him when he has his Q ready this is obvious. But in team fights you can't risk a lot... 3) You cannot engage without Q unless you attack from Fog of War (like bushes), you'll just have to walk up to the enemy like Darius or Garen I don't know, also they are tanks. 4) You cannot Forward Plan in team fights because maybe your teammate got caught and you have to hurry or your team engaged so that means you went forward and Box has very small range... Of course box must be used wisely and it's useful but don't bring it up as a mechanism to save Shaco from some things because 2 seconds is a long time in team fights. Also if you put a box when you used your ult you will also show which is the fake Shaco. Simple Clone can't cast spells. upgrade trinkets to place pink wards or upgrade red trinket and you counter his Q and he will have a lot more trouble coming into team figths.
: there should defo be a way to distinguish shaco from his clone, and I dont see why lack of items isnt a proper way to do this.
Clone can't cast spells, deals less damage, receives more damage than Shaco. Also if you debuff Shaco before his ult it will be clear which is the real one since every debuff has a visual. You are telling me that fast left-clicking to see champion stats is the way to counter his whole **Ultimate ability** I think even LB players have this problem with their passive.
Kaycee777 (EUW)
: You forgot he has Q or fear on his W?
Ok most of the slows are longer than 2 seconds and all have visuals on his feet and ignite is longer than 3 seconds and has a big visual. When I cast ult it takes ~0.75 seconds for clone to appear, and you are telling me that you can't see a visual debuff on the real Shaco? Also either he engages with Q and doesn't escape , or he escapes with Q with no engage there is 10 sec base cooldown there. W takes about 2 seconds to activate so it's not reliable in big fights that much, since AoE can destroy it easily.
: :D You want to buff Shaco? That muthafucka, who has 3/1/2 and technically pulls of 80% of my HP slows me down making my escape impossible while I'm 12/0/8 Draven? If you're about to run-out with "use purple ward", what if it's on cooldown, or I'm doing drake? When I'm against Rengar I see the **!**. Shaco is just one shooter, just like Veigar, but totally unpredictable especially when focussed on mini-map, farming and positioning and not at smoke in bushes that can appear anytime, and you still want his only weaknesses removed?! Downvoted. Stupid idea. It's like saying to buff Annie's ult. As if it wasn't strong enough.
First of all you are ADC very squishy damage dealer vulnerable to ALL ASSASSINS Second of all you are being reckless doing dragon alone and why are you doing dragon without purple ward... don't blame champions for your mistakes Third of all if you see a "!" when Rengar is near you can also say goodbye to your life if you are alone because you can't outrun him anyway Shaco is a one shooter like almost all assassins in the game if they are ahead it's very simple. You can be 20/0/100 Draven you will still build Full damage build without armor/mr/health and you will get wrecked by every assassin in the game. I said not to buff his damage output or defense just remove something that isn't necessary at all. He's countered by vision like all junglers and also by his Q smoke effect if you have slightly better peripheral vision in the FOG OF WAR. It's FOG OF WAR for a reason...
Kaycee777 (EUW)
: >Just REMOVE THE SMOKE effects when he casts spells when enemies DON'T have vision of him. No problem with this >Just ADD CLONE BUFFS THAT DO NOTHING just have a visual effects on him. Now there's a problem. There would be no way to differentiate him and because of his high burst (coupled with the fact that his clone deals dmg when killed), it would be almost impossible for you to win a 1v1 or even a 1v3 against him. >LEFT-CLICKING FAST ON BOTH SHACOS to know which is the real one. Clone shacos have items yo.
Like I said, outplay him by putting debuffs on him like DoT or Slow or Ignite (any debuff) before he uses his ult and if you don't use those things then look which Shaco deals less damage and receives more. It's supposed to be a mind game not a "which shaco has jungle buffs game". And buffs on clone DON'T NEED to work that will be OP as hell, that's what I'm avoiding Also, sometimes items don't appear for some strange reason.
Phaseroll (EUW)
: 1. Shaco is not only an extremely potent ganker, he is an extremely potent counter jungler as well. While it is true that one has more wards than 3 seasons ago (only if you had bad players though), the vision ward is now visible so you don't have to worry about being seen while invisible without knowing it and it's nearly impossible to ward enough to close off all of Shacos attack paths. Having a free flash on a relative short CD just enables him to circumvent common ward places and if the enemy adjusts, Shaco adjusts and boom, wards countered yet again. And you can't expect a jungler to ward his complete own jungle simply to not get easily ganked. I don't think you assess the situation adequately when you state that he won't become OP at that point. He will become a lot more potent. 2. While I do agree that it takes some of the mind play, there are enough windows where you don't have any visual buffs that give away who the real one is just by looking at him. While lane-phase and early roaming/lane switching you don't really know whether or not Shaco has a buff when he pops into your vision. Shaco can work around this fact to make other mind games. More often than not he doesn't need blue in the mid game and he won't be having red either when he is split pushing. So I'm assuming this is a early to early-mid issue you see. But I doubt the impact is really relevant. So I guess one could take away all visual cues on who the real Shaco is and only give that away when Shaco decides to use an ability or when you engage to judge via the damage which is pretty obvious in both directions, taking damage from the clone and damaging the clone. tl;dr Taking the puff is a huge buff to his gank and counter jungle strength. Sure, give the clone the exact visuals of Shaco. Passively looking shouldn't be rewarded.
I see your point , but there are a lot of ways to kill Shaco early off like playing safe or putting a vision ward behind you to actually CC him or kill him off when he approaches you. Also it's not difficult to ward against a Shaco, true you won't put wards on first closest bush near your lane, you put wards from places that he jumps from (it is really possible to ward enough to counter his ganks I've played those games and I got destroyed because the players knew where to ward and when, but when players don't ward Shaco still get punished by being seen in fog of war) and you will always be safe also he will lose his early power which kills him off mid/late game. Counter-jungling is also countered by wards in rivers or vision wards in the nearest bush to the river, the camps aren't far from lanes and often your teammates will come to your aid to kill the SQUISHY assassin, and the fight can also turn 3v3 or 4v4 depending on which side on the map you're on and Shaco really doesn't shine in team fights. It is really not that hard, wards are the key to everything but his skill effects counter his important attribute. Also I can be on bot lane and look at baron for a sec and see puff of smoke near my red buff without vision and pin point Shaco's location even if I couldn't have had any clues he was near that red buff at all. I just don't think it's fair that he gets to suffer for his stealth (Shaco's most important ability imo) just because people are too lazy to ward or play safe if they don't ward, but instead they cry about his stealth like it's something so scary and deadly. Buy wards, kill Shaco's early game, win games! But you are right, it is a BUFF if you look at it that way. I'm not asking for offensive or defensive buffs, I'm just asking for the Smoke to be removed since it's the ONLY skill in the game seen in the FOG OF WAR. Hell even Lee Sin has double the mobility Shaco has, without any punishment, has better ganking and counter-jungling potential also a lot more damage than Shaco overall and yet no one complains because he doesn't have stealth (not trying to tell Lee Sin is broken or OP, he's not) just saying that Shaco isn't OP as some of the people describe him to be.
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OrangeInTheBox

Level 30 (EUW)
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