LynXerf (EUW)
: Manamune Remake
The problems that I see with the manamune are twofold. Firstly, the mana regen that the item gives is pretty poor currently, +25% mana regen doesn't really do much at all until the end of the game, at which point you don't really need the mana regen. At least the archangel's staff gives 50%, which is a reasonable increase. It also doesn't help that AD casters tend to have poor base mana regen compared to the AP casters. Secondly, I have always found the toggle on muramana to be very ill-fitting for most of the champions that use the manamune effectively. Manamune is mostly suited for AD casters as it simply gives raw AD, champions that like to spam abilities rather than relying heavily on their autoattacks; muramana's toggle is instead far more suited for autoattackers as they can proc it far more often than the casters. I'm much rather see the active on Muramana replaced with something that suits AD casters more rather than the active and passive being at odds.
OzX (EUW)
: Mobility counters cc? You mean CC counters mobility right?
Hyper-mobile champions are more resistant to CC because they do their movement in sudden bursts, so they only need a split second to cover a large distance, meanwhile immobile champions need long uninterrupted periods to actually move anywhere as every single second where they can't move is movement lost. It's similar to how burst mages and assassins are more resistant to CC than marksmen as they only need half a second to do their thing rather than continually doing it over time. If you snare a champion for 1 second and it only takes you 1.5 seconds to kill them, the champion with a dash is far more likely to escape in that remaining half a second than someone plodding along with regular movement.
DemRat (EUW)
: Isn't knowing which champ is strongest right now meta-knowledge? It doesn't apply to a singular match, but rather to pre-game decisions.
No, because if a champion is the strongest due to actual imbalances, then the game mechanics dictate that they are the strongest, rather than meta knowledge determining their relative strength. If a champion is overtuned, from a game mechanics perspective playing as them is no different than simple things such as buying items or using runes, it is simply the game mechanics saying "this is how to play the game properly" as the game mechanics support that particular strategy over others. Going back to the rock-paper-scissors example: In terms of absolute balance, they are all equally balanced. In this situation, the "strongest" move is the one that counters the most popular strategy, rather than actually being stronger, with the only way of determining the popular strategy being through metagaming as there are no mechanics in the game to suggest that one move should be preferred over the others. The only way to determine the "strongest" would be through careful observation of players and a fair amount of psychology. Over time the game will evolve and play out differently, not because the game itself has changed, but because the players have. However, if the game was imbalanced, if rock is so strong that paper only beats it 80% of the time while rock still enjoys 100% victory rate against scissors, then suddenly there would be no true meta as the game mechanics dictate what the dominant strategy is, rather than the players themselves. If you introduce that rule to any number of groups, rock will take over and become the dominant strategy in every single one, even players without any knowledge of the game beyond the basic list of rules in front of them will know that rock is the way to play. You could meet someone entirely new, and you know that he will either play rock or be expecting you to play rock, because, rules-wise, that's how the game _should be played_. A system with such rules imbalances will never have a true meta because the rules only really support a single strategy, and the only way of getting players to play differently is to change the game itself.
: Lack of LGBT Champions
As far as I'm aware most of the characters aren't confirmed as either homosexual or heterosexual, there's only a few that are actually confirmed as heterosexual (and a few more on top of that are asexual). So basically because 90% of characters have unconfirmed sexuality, you assume that they are all heterosexual? For all we know, Hecarim could be gay, it's pretty harsh to assume things about people.
Red Yåsuo (EUNE)
: how do you play against annie if you dont outrange her
If you aren't capable of outranging her then you simply build tankier than usual. I've never really struggled against Annie with any of my chosen melee champions over the years (and over the years I have played Xin, Shen, Yorick, Voli, S4 Taric, Pantheon, plus probably others I can't remember in top lane, with my most recent melee champion of choice being Voli). Play aggressively whenever the minions are in your favour and the combination of your tankiness and the innate sustain that most melee champions have mean that you win trades over time, particularly if she is playing aggressively and burning through her mana. Obviously rushing Spectral Cowl is of great importance, unless your are someone like Irelia than can simply jump on Annie, lock her down and rip her apart before she can do much while sustaining naturally (in Irelia's case, rushing Wit's End or Triforce is arguably more important). Short range mages and marksmen struggle somewhat, and I don't have that much experience with short range mages except old Veigar (RIP), and with old Veigar it was simply a matter of farm up until I can 100-0 her during my stun or until my Jungler comes (with an optional early Banshee's depending on how good the Annie player is).
innated (EUNE)
: Champion balance
I'll just copy and paste one of my own posts regarding the "metagame" of LoL, as it still sums up my thoughts on the issue perfectly: "Going strictly by the definition, the meta involves the usage of knowledge beyond the game, rather than simply using the basic content that is actually in the game. Using this definition, LoL hasn't had an actual meta for years due to imbalances, the "meta" that people talk about when something changes that alters the power dynamics in the game isn't actually a "meta", but simply the "officially supported way to play the game". LoLs "meta" is no different that Starcraft having a "gather minerals for the first couple of minutes" meta or chess having a "use pawns" meta, those aren't metagames, they are simply the way to play the game properly. This is further exemplified in that every single region in the world uses the same limited set of strategies, when metagames should diverge significantly in isolation as they are largely independent of the actual game itself. An actual meta should depend on what the players are doing, not what the game itself dictates is overall the best strategy. A meta would be rock being popular in rock-paper-scissors, not with rock being popular due to being outright more powerful than paper and scissors. A meta should shift on its own without developer intervention (as the things that counter the meta should then become popular and become the new meta themselves, which others then try to counter), but I can't really think of a single change in the "meta" for LoL that wasn't due to the balance team breaking or fixing something."
: Why is Yasuo allowed to have 2 passives???
Because CertainlyT refuses to be outdone by anyone at kit overloading. All the other dual passives before Yasuo at least had some mechanical or thematic aspect tying them together, but CertainlyT simply put two completely unrelated passives together to help his quest to create the most broken kit ever.
: ashe support?!
Since half of her kit has been about helping her allies get the job done rather than doing stuff herself? Compared to all of the other marksmen she sacrifices by far the most personal power to support her allies. Also you need to remember that champion role =/= lane position. Technically Anivia is also classed as a support, despite her nearly always hanging out in mid, meanwhile half of the tank "supports" such as Blitzcrank aren't classed as supports.
DahiKaaN (EUW)
: The issue i find with balance of the game since last season
I also get quite annoyed by the constant removal of weaknesses to champions, reducing counterplay available; I disagree that they buff strengths though, most of the recent reworks have also hit the champions strengths to maintain overall balance. It's really boring when every champion is just a spammable barrage of mediocrity rather everyone having to play around crippling weaknesses to try to use their strengths. A good example of this is Veigar, who used to suffer from short ranges and massive mana issues, but compensated for these weaknesses with reliability and damage; nowadays he no longer has such serious mana issues as well as having reasonable poke, but has paid for it all by dealing significantly less damage and most of his abilities are now horrifically unreliable.
TeiX (EUW)
: oddly enough even there ppl expect you t obe perfect at the champion :P
However you will be matched with people with a much lower MMR, so they will have a much lower standard of "perfect".
: You're not allowed to learn new champs in a normal
That's why you learn new champions in team builder, as it matches you lower if you are playing champions or roles that you aren't familiar with. That way you can learn to play a champion without screwing the entire matchmaking system, as in non-teambuilder games it is balanced around you playing your best champions and only teambuilder actually takes into account your relative experience.
SevenOops (EUNE)
: Let's talk about the META
Going strictly by the definition, the meta involves the usage of knowledge beyond the game, rather than simply using the basic content that is actually in the game. Using this definition, LoL hasn't had an actual meta for years due to imbalances, the "meta" that people talk about when something changes that alters the power dynamics in the game isn't actually a "meta", but simply the "officially supported way to play the game". LoLs "meta" is no different that Starcraft having a "gather minerals for the first couple of minutes" meta or chess having a "use pawns" meta, those aren't metagames, they are simply the way to play the game properly. This is further exemplified in that every single region in the world uses the same limited set of strategies, when metagames should diverge significantly in isolation as they are largely independent of the actual game itself. An actual meta should depend on what the players are doing, not what the game itself dictates is overall the best strategy. A meta would be rock being popular in rock-paper-scissors, not with rock being popular due to being outright more powerful than paper and scissors. A meta should shift on its own without developer intervention (as the things that counter the meta should then become popular and become the new meta themselves, which others then try to counter), but I can't really think of a single change in the "meta" for LoL that wasn't due to the balance team breaking or fixing something.
blazeroman (EUNE)
: League of legends lore
I still feel sorry for {{champion:72}}, he got gutted as part of the Shurima retcon and didn't even get anything in the expanded setting to compensate. He literally went from being a proud vanguard of his own race, seeking to save the world and allow his people to survive, into simply being a Shuriman boss mob.
Mecar (EUW)
: Am I the only one who's sad to see Poppy getting "relaunched" ?
I can see why she is getting reworked, some parts of her kit are currently borderline unworkable at the moment (as others have said, mostly the passive and ultimate). That being said, I'm still worried about her being reworked as I have hated literally 95% of Riots recent reworks as they have a habit of destroying a champions gameplay by stripping out most of their weaknesses and counterplay, balanced only by the removal of most of their strengths. I'd rather have a problematic Poppy than an imposter who serves only to insult Poppy players.
Almighty (EUNE)
: DO NOT TOUCH SORAKA !!!
They are nerfing her because she is nearing the point of being as powerful as Thresh, which is something that Riot will never allow to pass. It's the same whenever one of the unfavoured starts to compete with the favoured ones, they always get nerfed into oblivion so that the favoured can maintain their top spots.
: Why do people feel the need to list abilities when calling a champion OP????
Because some champions have broken kits that can't be fixed by simply tweaking numbers, hence why there are several champions that people complain about all the time. Yasuo is a good example of this, his kit is basically fundamentally unbalancable because it simply doesn't give his opponents the space to actually do anything about him.
v1rtue (EUW)
: I think that cutting lifesteal on minions in half would solve pretty much all problems with lifesteal.
Something that I have suggested multiple times to balance lifesteal and spellvamp is to remove the penalty for AoE effects but instead say that they are only 33% effective against minions, and possibly a different value for neutral monsters. That way it balances the AoE spellvamp issue against champions, as well as preventing spellvamp and lifesteal from being overwhelming in lane.
: Should lifesteal items be limited to 1 or maybe a max amount of lifesteal permittted?
Would it not be simpler to just nerf lifesteal items, particularly the late-game ones? At the moment lifesteal is an order of magnitude better than every other form of sustain, and your suggestions are simply trying to limit the problem rather than fix it.
: What does a champion being 'overloaded' mean? Like people use it to talk about riven and yasuo alot
It's about how much their kit does. Overloaded kits tend to offer very little counterplay as, because they can do so many things, they tend to have very few weaknesses for an opponent to take advantage of. Most champions have one "overloaded" ability (even Taric, with his very minimalistic kit has a huge amount of stuff in his W), however some champions have almost an entire kit of overloaded abilities. One of the most infamous overloaded kits is Lee Sin, as almost every single one of his abilities has so many options and can do so much. His Q alone is a ranged poke, a visibility tool, a tank-shredding execute and a dash. Meanwhile he also has a shield (both self and ally), a dash (which is effectively ground-targeted because of wardjumping) and inbuilt sustain, again all in a single ability. In terms of variety of effects, if not in overall power, he basically can do as much as two other champions, which gives his opponents very little weakness to take advantage of. Other notably overloaded champions are Thresh, Rek'Sai, Ekko, and Yasuo (who you have already mentioned). Riven is often accused of being overloaded, however she is nowhere near as bad as the main offenders in this regard. The only overloaded ability that she has is her Q, as three dashes, AoE damage and an AoE knockup is more than Ahri has on her ultimate, but the rest of Riven's kit is fine in terms of loading. Similarly, Irelia is often accused of being overloaded, despite having overall a very restrictive kit in terms of absolute effects. The issues with Irelia stem, not from her having too much in her kit, but from what little she has working very well. Similar to Xin, she basically became the poster child for a set of several things that should never be combined together, rather than a warning about putting too much into a kit. Generally speaking, as Humpelstilzche said, people just often struggle to tell the difference between an _overly effective_ kit and an _overloaded_ kit.
Ebola san (EUNE)
: you do realize that it's **BONUS** armor penetration, right???? So, now that last whisper also works on bonus armor, you only need to get scaling armor runes to have enough effective armor to fuk up his damage because late game your base armor will be at least 75, depending on what champion you are... So, he is not hitting as hard anymore now. They must just replace that mastery...
I do know, hence why I referred to it as "bonus penetration" rather than simply "penetration". Getting scaling armour runes won't help you, as the extra armour they give is counted as bonus armour, not base armour. The point still stands that for no good reason he negates 50% of enemy bonus armour, so ignoring 50% of the armour that people go out of their way to get to counter him, halving the effectiveness of one of his core counters. Replacing the 50% bonus penetration would both significantly increase the effectiveness of some of the counterplay against Yasuo as well as freeing up a good chunk of his power budget to be put into other things, resulting in a win-win scenario as Yasuo would be more powerful yet his opponents have more effective options to counter him.
Steel (EUW)
: Is League of Legends Really Getting Destroyed By Riot
Another thing that I'd like to add is that changing too much in a single patch makes identifying potential balance problems significantly harder, simply because there are far more possibility as to what could actually be causing the problem. If only a few things are changed in a patch in an otherwise balanced game, then obviously the problem can be narrowed down to those few things, but if you alter 30% of the items, a few core mechanics, 20% of the champions and all the masteries, then a given problem could be almost anywhere, they practically have to go and rebalance the game from the ground up as they no longer know where problems originate from. Overall, it will take far more time and effort to balance the game with all of these changes than if they simply did 2 patches a week, with each one only having a few changes. That way they can gather feedback for what each change does and fix it before introducing other changes. There's no way this will be balanced by the end of preseason, it will likely take multiple seasons to sort this mess out. If they truly wanted balance, they would be fine-tuning the process the entire way and carefully gauging the effect of every change rather than binning the lot and starting over.
Durfain (EUW)
: Move Yasuo's crit passive to his ultimate
Even better, replace his 50% bonus penetration with the crit chance increase when he ults someone. That way more power could be put into his actual passive, he wouldn't need the -10% crit damage to balance him and his ultimate wouldn't reduce enemy counterplay for no good reason.
Steel (EUW)
: Is League of Legends Really Getting Destroyed By Riot
The problem that I see is that Riot don't seem to really care about actual balance, all they care about is incessant fiddling with the game. They need to do changes gradually, allowing them to gather feedback and so approach balance, but instead they enjoy throwing out so much of their work to start over while the balance team brings out their heaviest sledgehammers to try to fix things. This typically means that after many patches of zigzagging between something being overpowered and underpowered while they try to balance it with their sledgehammers, they then decide it needs replacing and suddenly all their work is undone and they have to start over. A good example of this would be the replacement of Magus with Runeglaive, they simply threw out all of their work on Magus (which was considered to be pretty balanced) just so that they could have a new fancy jungle item that would need significant amounts of balance work, when there was no real reason why they needed to remove the Magus that they had put so much effort into to make way for it when they could simply have both to give players additional options at no extra development cost. Alternatively if something isn't performing right then they cause some massive numerical change that will either make it overpowered or make it completely fall out of favour, Taric being a prime example of this as he had his brief moment in the limelight as arguably the strongest support before hit got hit so hard by the nerf bat that he practically became a troll pick, as opposed to some minor nerfs to bring him in line but keeping him relevant. The standard Riot procedure for most overpowered things is to nerf it into the ground then immediately declare that it is fundamentally weak and will never work, conveniently ignoring how it used to be strong and that actual balance was somewhere in the middle. These heavy-handed balance changes overall mean that rather than balance, every patch is basically Riot clapping their hands and saying "and in this patch, X will be the strongest - all hail our new overlord!". This lack of overall balance is exemplified by the fact that the meta never changes on it's own based on what the players are trying to do, only when the balance team intervenes (which, technically speaking, wouldn't make it a metagame, instead it would be simply the actual way to play the game). I get the feeling that there is someone at Riot does care about balance, there's usually a couple of well thought out minor tweaks in every patch that edge the game closer to balance, but whenever he tries to begin to do his job a power-mad designer steps in and deletes whatever he is working on or another balancer claims the balance problem as his own and brings out his favourite cast iron maul to try to solve it.
: Stop complaining about AP nerfs xD
The problem is that they nerfed all the AP items while buffing the AD ones, so it doesn't really matter if they increased the gold generation because it is about the relative efficiency of the items and not the absolute efficiency. If they increase gold generation and increase the cost of a select set of items, the overall effect is a cost reduction for all of the other items. Secondly, the relatively weak AP items were somewhat balanced by the fact that MR itemisation was pretty bad. Armour has always been able to get away with being incredibly strong because it has always been up against the incredibly powerful AD items, while MR has always been up against the mediocre AP items so it has never needed to be strong; even just 400 health and 50 MR makes it really difficult for mages to hurt you, while 400 health and 50 armour just makes marksmen laugh as they kill you in a couple of seconds. Things have to be balanced against their counters.
Jounichu (EUW)
: What's up with this adc-top meta?
Because they massively buffed most AD items as well as they have made several new overpowered reworks? It will probably take a few months for Riot to even begin balancing all the stuff they changed.
: LULU BUG 2+ YEARS
The perceived range issues come from how most spells are ranged from center to center, while auto attacks are edge to edge. This generally means that auto attacks are effectively about 100 more range than they are listed as, depending on the size of the units involved.
: Volibear op
If he was OP he would be a permanent fixture in the LCS and/or Worlds, but he didn't appear there, so therefore he is either underpowered or balanced.
: Garen - Let the Debate Between the Garen Mains and Non-Garen Mains Begin...
His only problem is his % health true damage, which really doesn't fit him at all and only serves to reduce the amount of counterplay people have against him. It would make more sense to simply make him deal a percentage more damage to the villain rather than % true damage, as it would achieve exactly the same effect of giving him bonus damage against the villain except with the added counterplay of health and armour (and MR against his ult).
: Normal games MMR? Is it real?
It's probably that after practising so much with ranked, your skills were better and so you won a few games in a row, which pushed your MMR up to where it should be quite quickly. The MMR system can get quite swingy because of the effects of winning streaks, so it doesn't take too long for your MMR to change drastically. The other bit of telltale evidence is that it used to be possible to find out your MMR, which was completely unaffected by playing other queues. It's a shame they keep on getting rid of the ways people are able to track down their MMR, as it makes conversations about MMR quite difficult as nobody actually knows the fundamentals behind it as the values are currently hidden from us.
Maazinea (EUNE)
: actually 50% is perfect balance (theoretically speaking) XD
50% is only perfect balance if you don't include players that don't know how to play the champion (so clueless players aren't skewing statistics) and if all champions have equal play rates (which takes into account that some champions counter others).
Kauski (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ñielu2lehdus,realm=EUNE,application-id=39gqIYVI,discussion-id=ZvKvfQ0P,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-08T19:04:26.658+0000) > > Thornmail can be played around with a few ways. > Magic resistance and/or life steal helps reduce the damage of Thornmail, and armor penetration and/or -reduction helps you deal more damage, killing the holder faster. Going with plain damage, attack speed and critical strikes will result in utter destruction. Ideally, delegate destroying of heavily armored tanks with Thornmail to ability- and magic damage dealers instead. yeah ur gonna build banshee first item on adc so you dont get destroyed by thornmail?
Or you could do the smart thing and instead get an early Wit's End or Maw of Malmortius?
Rohirrim (EUNE)
: What can be done with Pantheon
But his spear already has plenty of counterplay, it has relatively short range and Pantheon himself has quite a lot of mana issues. Most mages can easily enough stay out of it's range and bombard him with long-range skillshots, while shorter range champions can simply get sustain and/or armour and watch how Pantheon's mana bar goes down far faster than their health.
: I know, and I love doing it on Karma. Baron+BoC+Karma is just mean sometimes. I just wonder whether Riot is content with this strategy. I mean, they removed it for Lulu. And apparantly they don't like denying creeps, as can be seen with GP. Do you think they kept this on Soraka/Karma (and to some extent Braum/Alistar) intentionally as a feature, or did they forget about it, as it doesn't directly cause any problems?
I think it's because the additional option of pushing harder outweighs the issue of preventing people from farming. It's hardly an absolute method of preventing farming anyway as players can easily play around it by predicting the heal.
: The Balanced Champion of League
{{champion:77}}, multiple viable builds that basically encompass every single item in the game, well defined weaknesses that give his opponent plenty of room to work with, weaknesses that vary depending on his specific build so that he can counter his opponents and a fitting but not overloaded kit. Also his numbers have been actually tuned to a state of almost impeccable balance so that he has seen regular play for a long time without a single direct change on him, to the point that on the rare occasions where he is seen to be over or under performing it is typically a symptom of something else not being balanced properly.
Zedriw (EUW)
: League is so textbook!
Part of the problem is that every time something appears that may shake up the meta and force players to play differently, it gets nerfed into oblivion. Remember double relic shield in top lane in a junglerless team? Despite it being balanced to the point that all the pros couldn't agree on whether it was better or worse than the standard compositon, it got literally halved in power before any consensus was reached. Remember the triple bot lane strategy to effectively remove the laning phase from the game? A couple of patches after the pros figured it out towers got massive damage reduction from champions in early game, preventing early pushes from working. Remember old Nidalee, the champion that required very different thinking to both defeat and to work with as an ally? Yeah, she got reworked so that she was basically the same as everyone else. As far as champions go, it's basically only Singed who is very much keeping the concept of unique gameplay styles alive. It also doesn't help that Riot don't like 75% of the champions in the game and the moment they begin to become as popular as the likes of Thresh or Zed in high level play they immediately nerf them heavily to keep the favoured champions on top. Likewise, they deliberately add clauses into some champion kits to strangle their strategic options, stagnating their gameplay.
: Why can Soraka heal minions?
It works well with the BoC as you mentioned, but it is also pretty useful for pushing down towers by healing the cannon minion. Cannon minions have damage reduction against tower hits, so healing them is actually quite effective for getting a bit more damage off against a tower when a wave hits it.
Vrrgil (EUW)
: Supports/Mages.
Actual supports are practically just mages (not the tanks that people take in bot lane and refer to as "support"), hence why the term "utility mage" is often used to refer to them. They simply sacrifice pure damage output for extra utility and buffs for allies. They tend to be used in duo lanes because utility and buffs don't achieve much on their own, they need something to work with an increase the effectiveness of their utility and buffs. I very rarely see supports working well in other lanes, as without anyone to support a regular mage tends to outperform them in almost every regard, the only support I sometimes see in other lanes these days is Lulu.
: Champion Points.
You can't "main more", you can only really have one main. That's what having a main is, a champion that you play practically exclusively.
Vitim (EUW)
: RIP my sweetheart Quinn
Welcome to the world of Riot reworks, where they spit in the face of all the players who love their favourite champion just so that a designer can go on a power trip and feel mighty by beating down a section of helpless code that can't fight back. I'm still recovering from the loss of my Veigar myself, and I send out my condolences towards anyone else who has ever lost a beloved champion.
Myhew (EUW)
: YI IS FAR TOO OP
To be honest, he is in a position where he is almost impossible to balance because so much of hit kit revolves around preventing counterplay. A minor rework to add some additional counterplay to him would make him so much easier to balance.
: Can you add a sort of sightstone but without vision?
Some sort of stone that you can jump to in ARAM to get to the middle of the enemy team... {{champion:54}}?
: Rift Herald?
Looks good, it's something they were actually planning to implement a couple of seasons ago but never got round to it. It's important as the Dragon being available in the early game while the Baron is only around later is one of the main causes for the stagnation in bot lane and the remoteness of top lane. Hopefully the rewards for killing the Herald will be good enough that teams would consider running duo-top, sacrificing dragon control for Herald control, although I know it will take a bit of balancing to get the rewards to be different but balanced against the dragon's.
: Well yes there is a reason why nautilus and maokai are often played as supports, they do 2/3 of the adcs hp in a chain cc. And at the cinderhulk time sejuani WAS an assasin, who would nuke literally anyone
Actually, they are played as supports not because of the damage they deal in their CC chains, but because of how much damage their lane partners can deal during that time.
: APC vs bruisers toplane
It can work, but you have to be careful as many of the traditional top laners such as Irelia have solid gap closers and the sustain to ignore your poke. To not die you basically need to play a perfect game, as the slightest mistake will often get you killed. That's why the mages you see in top lane either tend to be incredibly mobile, such as Lissandra, or be ap/tank hybrids or ap fighters as they have the durability to survive people jumping on them.
Cryptidian (EUNE)
: Change Leona's passive so that she can activate it on jungle monsters :)
I've had a related suggestion to this before, which is to instead allow jungle monsters to proc it on enemies as if they were allied champions. It would be useless for regular jungling, but it would be quite fun in counterjungling as she could jump on an enemy jungler while they are doing a camp and the enemy takes loads of damage from the sunlight procs as the monsters keep triggering them. It would also make Leona quite good at diving enemy teams trying to do Baron, as Baron's AoE damage combined with Leona's ult putting sunlight onto most of a team would be quite effective. I'd also quite like to see allied towers proc the damage to discourage dives, but that's a discussion for a different thread.
: Tbh I think they overdid it with the passive, Giant Slayer shouldn't be maximum HP but current HP, this way the passive can't be abused by Glass Cannons that don't build HP Items and also makes them think twice about re-engaging when the passive might be down against the likes of Riven, Lulu, Jayce, etc. Items should always have their counter, as it stands LDR has no weakness or counter-build/counter-play.
That's kind of the point, it's meant to be bought by squishys to deal with health-stackers, it's there to prevent fighters buying it to take down other fighters. The real problem is that it is on an item that also counters armour-stacking, meaning that there is basically nothing a tank or fighter can do about this item, that's the reason why the item lacks counterplay. If the Giant Slayer passive was on a new item then fighters and tanks can counter it by building armour rather than health, while against someone with LW they would buy health instead of armour. By putting them both on a single item it negates any counterplay because it deals with everything they could possibly do, but if they were spread across different items then players would have to devote a large amount of their build for uncounterably dealing with tanks and fighters rather than simply getting everything in a single item, which would then cause them to be unable to deal with squishies properly.
: ADCs were useless for almost 3 seasons now. And the tanks you play are all just easy-to-play no-risk-high-reward tanky assasins. The tank meta was the most boring time I had in LoL. Either the jungler or toplaner gets fed so hard that they only need tanky items and still manage to nuke the mid,supp,adc from 100 to 0 in a few seconds while having 200res and 4k hp, is that what you call justified? At the very least you can counter ADCs and assasins simply by nuking them or getting a thornmail, they're down in like 2 seconds. It's a good thing the game will be more punishing for all those Garens and Irelias who just stupidly jump in get 2 kills in a 1v5 and even get away with it. About fuckin time
ADCs useless for 3 seasons? If they were so useless then how come we have been seeing at least 2 in every game, sometimes going up to 3 or 4? That's still more common than assassins were at the height of the assassin meta.
Hrki (EUNE)
: We already have BOTRK as a counter to high health tanks, and it was extremely efficient. To me it looks like Riot wants to make tanks unviable. Guess we'll start seeing 3 assassins and 2 ADCs per game.
To be honest, I feel that the BotRK is also pretty overloaded, it should be split into two items, with one taking the passive and the other taking the active. It's pretty stupid to have kiting, sustain, %health damage and a reasonable amount of flat damage all on a single item. You know there's a problem when a "niche" item to counter health stacking is the most popular item in the game. There's also the idea that if we were to have a full dedicated giant slayer item then players would have the option to get both to dedicate more of their build to countering specific opponents. This in turn allows for health items to be buffed as players would then have the option to dedicate more of their build to countering them. Things have to be balanced around the effectiveness and ease of their counters after all. It also annoys me that everyone goes on and on about this "tank meta", when tanks haven't been popular outside of bot lane for a long time as Riot have been continually nerfing their CC for multiple seasons. The juggernauts are all fighters, not tanks, similar to when Cinderhulk came out the only tanks that were overpowering were Sejuani and Gragas while the rest of the long list of the overperforming champions were all fighters.
: New "Anti-Tank" item overkill
And this is another example of overloading an item, preventing it from being able to actually do anything without simply being overpowered. The Giant Slayer passive is quite cool, giving a solid counter to health-stackers, however it really shouldn't be combined with a % armour penetration item as it makes the item counter both of the main defensive stats against physical damage. This item means that you can't forgo armour to focus on health, but you are equally screwed if you forgo stacking large amounts of health to focus on armour, as either way one of the passives counters you. They should keep the Last Whisper passive, but buff it up slightly, then put Giant Slayer onto a new item. That way you would have different counters for different builds, rather than having a universally good item against defensive builds
DELDE115 (EUW)
: Well, Graves was very similar to Lucian, the fact that they are changing Graves sounds awesome to me. I might even main him again because of the changes. Riot is just giving Graves a "real" identity and not a Lucian 2.0, despite Graves being the original xD
However, I feel that they could do that with less invasive changes than the current PBE ones. Just little things such as making his current passive be a % armour/MR increase rather than flat (so it might give him 30% extra armour and MR when fully stacked, or whatever value would be balanced) which would immediately give massive rewards for building defensive items on him which would likely change how he builds while also keeping him very much as the current Graves in terms of gameplay. It's amazing how much difference a couple of changes in scaling or altering a steroid can make to a champion. I'm all for making him the in-your-face brawler marksman/fighter hybrid, which is always what he was meant to be, but that can be done by working with his existing kit by tweaking numbers and making small alterations without resorting to effective deletion and replacement.
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RamirezKurita

Level 30 (EUW)
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