Shamose (EUW)
: Riots Punishment system is godlike. (Feat. TF Blade.)
Lulz, I made a post about how it is unfair that people who troll etc dont get banned but if I call the troll a frag (remove one letter) I get insta banned on the spot and everyone justified it with: rito did experiment where they chat restricted people and they continued to troll, 100% correlation if you flame you also troll so deserved. Now it happens to a streamer and you lose your minds. Piss off people, his ban is deserved, shouldnt have been toxic, no matter who his target is. There you effing go, I hope this shit continues so you morons wake up.
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-07-03T13:28:04.488+0000) > > Again this is a non-argument. It will be a self-imposed measure, not forced upon you by riot. Besides, since this will activate after the 14-day ban which is before the permanent one, it will not interfere with the punishment system either and if the player then trolls, he continues up the ladder and gets a permanent ban. Or you control yourself. You won't have this self chat ban.
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T13:34:34.286+0000) > > Or you control yourself. You won't have this self chat ban. Why cannot you take the self imposed chat ban as a self control measure? You prevent yourself from behaving badly, is that not self control in some way?
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:54:50.546+0000) > > My last point makes sense exactly because the functionality was introduced so that you do not have to read someone's messages if you do not want to, because back in the day people had thicker skin and did not cry abuse when someone used a mean word. > > And lets be real, talking crap to someone who is already, say, 0/6 makes little to no difference to the game, but going 0/6 to irritate your teammates does. It was made as a quick fix against flamer ingame, then abused by stupid people not able to control themselves. Talking crap to anyone has no place in the game. Whatever the kda of the one you insult.
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005,timestamp=2019-07-03T14:04:08.063+0000) > > Forums and ingame chat does not serve the same purpose. This isn't hypocrisy, just common sense. But seeing at how your reason, no wonder you don't have any common sense. Common sense would tell me that a place made purely for discussion should be more civil than a place where 10 players talk in the heat of the moment. But hey, go around insulting people on forums while at the same time being condescending because they did the exact same thing you do, just in a different place.
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:54:50.546+0000) > > My last point makes sense exactly because the functionality was introduced so that you do not have to read someone's messages if you do not want to, because back in the day people had thicker skin and did not cry abuse when someone used a mean word. > > And lets be real, talking crap to someone who is already, say, 0/6 makes little to no difference to the game, but going 0/6 to irritate your teammates does. It was made as a quick fix against flamer ingame, then abused by stupid people not able to control themselves. Talking crap to anyone has no place in the game. Whatever the kda of the one you insult.
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003,timestamp=2019-07-03T13:31:37.359+0000) > > It just has not its place in the game. When there is trash on the ground, most of the time you won't care that much but at the same time you think that it would be better without it. Flamers are trash. > The pronons thing is %%%%%%ed imo, your argument is invalid. > > Flamers and trolls are both unwanted. But it's far easier to spot flamers. But both are banned, don't worry about that. Flaming a troll is forbidden too, other player have to deal with both at the same time, why would they have to? So how does it work, can I call certain group of people stupid or trash on the forums but on in the game? What is the difference between in game flamers and what you are doing now and why isnt it hypocrisy?
: > If the player got banned for chat behavior, this eliminates the issue completely and also allows players to keep their accounts they spent time and money on permanent chat bans were the reason people started to int. You can't text the - in your eyes - complete douchbag and tell him how bad he is? Well then run it down his lane!
> [{quoted}](name=Reichsleiter,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-03T13:22:31.182+0000) > > permanent chat bans were the reason people started to int. You can't text the - in your eyes - complete douchbag and tell him how bad he is? Well then run it down his lane! Again this is a non-argument. It will be a self-imposed measure, not forced upon you by riot. Besides, since this will activate after the 14-day ban which is before the permanent one, it will not interfere with the punishment system either and if the player then trolls, he continues up the ladder and gets a permanent ban.
M3GTRDragon (EUNE)
: just more trolls we can't ban. if you're a douche you'll be a douche for a while, until someone brakes your bones because of your own behaviour
> [{quoted}](name=M3GTRDragon,realm=EUNE,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-03T13:06:04.688+0000) > > just more trolls we can't ban. if you're a douche you'll be a douche for a while, until someone brakes your bones because of your own behaviour So what prevents people to just make new accounts and be trolls anyway? This point you people are making has no weight because if you believe it is going to happen, it will regardless of whether people can disable their chat or not, but the former gives people (even if they might be a small amount) ability to prevent bans and keep their main accounts, while the trolls will keep making new ones anyway. Being against this feature literally does not help anything, while implementing it will help some.
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:54:50.546+0000) > > My last point makes sense exactly because the functionality was introduced so that you do not have to read someone's messages if you do not want to, because back in the day people had thicker skin and did not cry abuse when someone used a mean word. > > And lets be real, talking crap to someone who is already, say, 0/6 makes little to no difference to the game, but going 0/6 to irritate your teammates does. It was made as a quick fix against flamer ingame, then abused by stupid people not able to control themselves. Talking crap to anyone has no place in the game. Whatever the kda of the one you insult.
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-03T12:34:43.386+0000) > > Sure, let's ignore my previous message about hidding a problem. > > What you are doing is pointless : there won't be chat ban, whatever amount of facts you want to deny. What problem is there if everyone just either did not care about some random guy talking random crap on the internet or muted him? You are acting as if you were forced to read it, as if it was actually harming you in any way. I assume you are in support of all the laws that would make it illegal for people to use wrong pronouns for transgenders right? Besides, banning flamers and leaving trolls be isnt hiding a problem? They are pretending to be solving something while in fact nothing is being done. How many people do you think get banned for flaming a troll until he gets finally banned?
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:54:50.546+0000) > > My last point makes sense exactly because the functionality was introduced so that you do not have to read someone's messages if you do not want to, because back in the day people had thicker skin and did not cry abuse when someone used a mean word. > > And lets be real, talking crap to someone who is already, say, 0/6 makes little to no difference to the game, but going 0/6 to irritate your teammates does. It was made as a quick fix against flamer ingame, then abused by stupid people not able to control themselves. Talking crap to anyone has no place in the game. Whatever the kda of the one you insult.
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T12:18:49.342+0000) > > It was made as a quick fix against flamer ingame, then abused by stupid people not able to control themselves. > > Talking crap to anyone has no place in the game. Whatever the kda of the one you insult. It is just words. Fighting against words displayed as pixels on your screen is easy, you just need to hide them. But apparently that makes you stupid now.
ShanksFX (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-03T12:03:50.768+0000) > > Yes talking shit to someone does literally nothing, which is why I personally do not even agree that it should be reportable, but lets not go there. I see flame wars as 2 people talking crap and grinning, thinking the other person is actually mad, hence why I just dont care about talking crap in general. Problem comes when people who actually ruin games can walk free while someone who just talked crap to that person cant, so riot can pretend they are doing something? I dont know what the reason is. Alright lets put it differently: Flaming and shittalking does absolutely nothing for your team. I dont even want to know how many games i have lost because some %%%%head started to flame, another one joined in and we lost a winnable game because those 2 spend more time chatting than actually playing. I generally dont care what someone says to me or thinks of me. What i do care about is that those people directly lower my chance to win a game. So yes. Absolutely valid to ban those people.
Well your chance to win matters more on the players themselves than what they say in game. If I lost games it was because people were trolling, feeding or simply did not know how to translate won fights into objectives or what to do in the particular stage of the game, not because they talked crap.
ShanksFX (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:32:12.383+0000) > > My thing is that I will not pander to anyone. If I see an inter in game I will talk cr*p to him (I am playing a game, not dining with a queen to force myself into pretending I am enjoying it). I got banned plainly for talking cr*p and I will be the first to admit I talk cr*p. This is why for me, being given an option to disable my ability to type in chat would literally save my account and since it does not harm anyone, I do not understand why people and riot are so much against an option like this. > > And once again you are assuming I am trolling games gameplay wise. I do not, my account would not have 62% winrate if I did. > > Let me ask you this then. What bothers you so much about me having the option to disable myself from being able to type in chat? It literally does nothing to you. Ot bothers me in that regard that riot already tried this (nearly) exact approach and it did NOT work. It just increased the amount of actual trolls. And i rather have someone who talking shit than someone running it down. At least i can just mute him and report him afterwards. Yes it might work for you but overall it just worsens the game. So its a no from me. Also, why talk shit to someone? there is absolutly no reason. Does it make you feel better?Gget yourself a punching bag if you need to vent. Do you think it hurts someone who is running it down? He probably just wants this reaction and laughs about you. There is absolutly NO benefit from flaming someone. Nothing. It just proves that you have a weak mental, thats all.
> [{quoted}](name=ShanksFX,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:42:05.009+0000) > > Ot bothers me in that regard that riot already tried this (nearly) exact approach and it did NOT work. It just increased the amount of actual trolls. > And i rather have someone who talking shit than someone running it down. At least i can just mute him and report him afterwards. > Yes it might work for you but overall it just worsens the game. So its a no from me. > > Also, why talk shit to someone? there is absolutly no reason. Does it make you feel better?Gget yourself a punching bag if you need to vent. > Do you think it hurts someone who is running it down? He probably just wants this reaction and laughs about you. > There is absolutly NO benefit from flaming someone. Nothing. It just proves that you have a weak mental, thats all. Yes talking shit to someone does literally nothing, which is why I personally do not even agree that it should be reportable, but lets not go there. I see flame wars as 2 people talking crap and grinning, thinking the other person is actually mad, hence why I just dont care about talking crap in general. Problem comes when people who actually ruin games can walk free while someone who just talked crap to that person cant, so riot can pretend they are doing something? I dont know what the reason is.
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T10:23:56.368+0000) > > I do not believe that I misunderstood you, it is just that we are coming in with different assumptions. You assume that everyone who is chat restricted will then troll in subtle manner, while my position is that those who choose themselves to be chat restricted do so because they do not want to get banned for flaming people who troll in subtle manner. It's not an assumption, it was experimented. But only a half of them was detected. Riot had to look at the gameplays very carefully to realize the other half was also trolling. Almost everyone that was perma chat banned was trolling, even subtly. And a significant part was undetectable. Because of those two things : - Causality between perma chat ban and subsequent trolling - Difficulty to detect said trolling The ban issued instead is a gameplay ban.
> [{quoted}](name=IM Bula Bula,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:41:52.226+0000) > > It's not an assumption, it was experimented. But only a half of them was detected. Riot had to look at the gameplays very carefully to realize the other half was also trolling. > > Almost everyone that was perma chat banned was trolling, even subtly. And a significant part was undetectable. > Because of those two things : > - Causality between perma chat ban and subsequent trolling > - Difficulty to detect said trolling > The ban issued instead is a gameplay ban. Alright, I do not doubt the results but again, that experiment already took people proven to troll and discovered that they keep trolling. It did not take anyone who wanted to disable their chat as a precautionary measure, which is what I would like to do.
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:32:12.383+0000) > > My thing is that I will not pander to anyone. If I see an inter in game I will talk cr*p to him (I am playing a game, not dining with a queen to force myself into pretending I am enjoying it). I got banned plainly for talking cr*p and I will be the first to admit I talk cr*p. This is why for me, being given an option to disable my ability to type in chat would literally save my account and since it does not harm anyone, I do not understand why people and riot are so much against an option like this. > > And once again you are assuming I am trolling games gameplay wise. I do not, my account would not have 62% winrate if I did. > > Let me ask you this then. What bothers you so much about me having the option to disable myself from being able to type in chat? It literally does nothing to you. - Control yourself - Do you sometimes use the chat to win games ?
> [{quoted}](name=IM Bula Bula,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:43:10.110+0000) > > - Control yourself > - Do you sometimes use the chat to win games ? Whenever I tried to use chat to win games I was quickly proven that it makes no sense. I can spam for 30 minutes that we need to buy items that lower healing cause nasus and vlad are kind of ahead and kayn is also in jungle but in the end, I rarely encountered someone who actually did listen. And I am a support main, it takes a long time for me to get morello for 3000 gold.
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:45:01.239+0000) > > So in that case I take it that you really hate the mute buttons in game? Since you know, if people use them they cannot answer your questions. > > Or perhaps I should turn it around and tell you to learn to use the mute buttons instead of complaining someone is using words you disabled the language filter to see? Yup. Using mute on someone that did not talk first is straight stupid. Your last point makes no sense. It's not because the problem is hidden that there is no problem.
> [{quoted}](name=LightOfTheSeven,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:48:04.246+0000) > > Yup. Using mute on someone that did not talk first is straight stupid. > > Your last point makes no sense. It's not because the problem is hidden that there is no problem. My last point makes sense exactly because the functionality was introduced so that you do not have to read someone's messages if you do not want to, because back in the day people had thicker skin and did not cry abuse when someone used a mean word. And lets be real, talking crap to someone who is already, say, 0/6 makes little to no difference to the game, but going 0/6 to irritate your teammates does.
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:32:12.383+0000) > > My thing is that I will not pander to anyone. If I see an inter in game I will talk cr*p to him (I am playing a game, not dining with a queen to force myself into pretending I am enjoying it). I got banned plainly for talking cr*p and I will be the first to admit I talk cr*p. This is why for me, being given an option to disable my ability to type in chat would literally save my account and since it does not harm anyone, I do not understand why people and riot are so much against an option like this. > > And once again you are assuming I am trolling games gameplay wise. I do not, my account would not have 62% winrate if I did. > > Let me ask you this then. What bothers you so much about me having the option to disable myself from being able to type in chat? It literally does nothing to you. Then don't talk crap. And if I ask you a question and you can't answer, it bothers me. Leanr to use the chat as it should be used.
So in that case I take it that you really hate the mute buttons in game? Since you know, if people use them they cannot answer your questions. Or perhaps I should turn it around and tell you to learn to use the mute buttons instead of complaining someone is using words you disabled the language filter to see?
ShanksFX (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T11:14:07.028+0000) > > Riot tried that out with people who were already trolling to begin with. They never once gave any opportunity to players to disable their own ability to chat in any way, shape or form, even though it is requested on quite a regular basis. > > If you take people who already troll in games and give them chat restrictions they continue to troll in games. What a surprise. Yeah toxic people who get muted keep trolling ingame. A suprise indeed. So what do you think makes your approach different? The choice to be muted instead of getting muted by riot? C'mon.. You cant possibly be that naive.
My thing is that I will not pander to anyone. If I see an inter in game I will talk cr*p to him (I am playing a game, not dining with a queen to force myself into pretending I am enjoying it). I got banned plainly for talking cr*p and I will be the first to admit I talk cr*p. This is why for me, being given an option to disable my ability to type in chat would literally save my account and since it does not harm anyone, I do not understand why people and riot are so much against an option like this. And once again you are assuming I am trolling games gameplay wise. I do not, my account would not have 62% winrate if I did. Let me ask you this then. What bothers you so much about me having the option to disable myself from being able to type in chat? It literally does nothing to you.
ShanksFX (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=shiors,realm=EUW,application-id=NzaqEm3e,discussion-id=EPQolPpg,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T10:23:56.368+0000) > > I do not believe that I misunderstood you, it is just that we are coming in with different assumptions. You assume that everyone who is chat restricted will then troll in subtle manner, while my position is that those who choose themselves to be chat restricted do so because they do not want to get banned for flaming people who troll in subtle manner. > Its not just an assumption, its a proven fact. Riot already tried that in the past. It did not work out. So why should they risk it again? Riot has absolutly 0 obligation to cater to toxic people. You either respect the tos and play by the rules, or you're out. Its that simple.
Riot tried that out with people who were already trolling to begin with. They never once gave any opportunity to players to disable their own ability to chat in any way, shape or form, even though it is requested on quite a regular basis. If you take people who already troll in games and give them chat restrictions they continue to troll in games. What a surprise.
: I think you missunderstood my comment as your last paragraph doesn't cover the topic I was talking about
I do not believe that I misunderstood you, it is just that we are coming in with different assumptions. You assume that everyone who is chat restricted will then troll in subtle manner, while my position is that those who choose themselves to be chat restricted do so because they do not want to get banned for flaming people who troll in subtle manner. And my last paragraph focuses exactly on this. Chat toxicity is easy to detect while subtle trolling is not. Hence riot bans people toxic in chat while subtle trolls who tipped them off can roam free ( this is why I compare it to pharma industry - you treat symptoms (flamers) not the cause (people who troll) ). My position seeks to enable people to defend against this if they know they will flame such people in the future Feel free to elaborate further if you think I still got you wrong.
: > - I have seen people claim that chat restrictions are pointless because people then troll in-game. ---- I do not see how this is an argument. If someone then trolls in-game as well, he gets banned but if he does not, he gets to safeguard his account. Inting and ruining games can be done in a subtle manner that can be much harder to detect than chat toxicity Since it's been proved in the past that giving people permanent chat restrictions just makes them start ruining games by other means, this would just give them the ability to not get banned while ruining games in more subtle ways Obviously not all players would play it smart and some might get caught and banned in the process, but the absolute priority for these kinds of system is to avoid collateral damage, not to make like easier for the people breaking the rules So if there's an increased probability for more unpunished toxic behaviour it's not a good system
Hey, thanks for your comment. I have actually covered this in my last paragraph. I also believe this supports my idea, because if you choose to get yourself chat restricted, you cannot trash talk those subtle trolls and thus you prevent yourself from being banned by them. Remember this is not a punishment riot inflicts, this is a choice people make for themselves if they see they lose temper to the subtle trolls you describe and want to make sure they do not lose their accounts to those who find it funny to try and get people banned in this manner. You can always choose not to be chat restricted after your 14-day ban if you think you can handle yourself while facing these trolls.
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shiors

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